Wheel base - Mini Van versus Trailblazer

[jkust]

How important is wheel base on a tow vehicle? Here is my scenario. I currently tow my +-3500# set up with an old Silhouette Minivan with tow package. Other than the lack of horsepower for deadstop takeoffs and 4wd on slippery ramps or hard turns, it tows very respectible considering it is a car chasis. The van is heavy and has a 120 inch wheelbase so the tail doesn't wag the dog but it is way underpowered with a small v6. That said every trip I take is a gift since the tranny has got to give out sooner or later so I am wanting to upgrade to a used mid sized SUV. I am partial to the Trailblazer/Envoy because the depreciation is just huge and you can get a lot of truck for a little money and the interiors are nice albeit a generation outdated, I think. So a standard length trailblazer is 113 inches which is a lot shorter than the van but it has a lot more power and of course 4wd. I don't think I want the extended Trailblazer because they are scarce and hence expensive and a lot longer than the van in the garage (plus my wife likes to hit stuff). How much of a difference will 7 inches in wheelbase make? Will the large torque and HP increase offset the shorter wheelbase or will the tail wag the dog?

[windsors03cobra]

If you think the Silhouette pulls the trailer good your going to think a Trailblazer is a towing god.

That's all I got to say about that.

[slasmith1]

for a 3500lb boat you should really be looking at a 1/2 ton pickup or suv on a 1/2 ton chasis. I wouldn't worry about the transmission but I sure don't want to be the guy in front of you if you need to stop fast.

[TilliamWe]

jkust, the full frame, the running gear, braking system, and the weight of the Trailblazer will more than make up for any perceived shortcoming of a 113" wheelbase. And in the world of wheelbases, 113" is not short, really. A regular length TB would tow your combo fine.
As windsor says, if you think your minivan is okay (which I think you are CRAZY for even trying it!), you'll drop to your knees and thank the Auto Gods the first time you hook it to a Trailblazer!

[TilliamWe]

Also, it sounds like you have paid a little attention to them, but you do know that those I6 Trailblazers are absolute Gas Hogs, right? You won't get over 17mpg city (more like 15) and highway doesn't help much, think 20mpg. With gas rising for no good reason, (and it's gonna stay high) it's something to consider.

[jkust]

Also, it sounds like you have paid a little attention to them, but you do know that those I6 Trailblazers are absolute Gas Hogs, right? You won't get over 17mpg city (more like 15) and highway doesn't help much, think 20mpg. With gas rising for no good reason, (and it's gonna stay high) it's something to consider.

I guess I am thinking that there really is no way around the bad mileage thing but I did notice that oil is at its 2009 high. Our van gets maybe 2000 miles a year on it since my wife drives it and we live close to everything so all in all we don't spend a ton on gas regularly. If there is an appropriate sized suv that gets better mileage, I am all ears and with a van I am not hard to impress except I do like a nice interior. Also Believe me I am very aware of the minivan situation and towing but that is why I am upgrading. I did not realize that a similarly sized/weight suv would actually stop faster with a trailer than the van.

[fsds123]

I did not realize that a similarly sized/weight suv would actually stop faster with a trailer than the van.

It won't. I'm not sure where that idea came from, but it is not true and makes no sense. The vehicle with the shorter stopping distance without a trailer will also have the shorter distance with a trailer.

I don't think you will notice any positive difference towing wise switching to a trailblazer of the same year. I just looked up the numbers for 2000 model years of both vehicles and in 2wd versions they both weigh the same, have the same hp, same braking distance from 60, but the Silhouette has a 13 inch longer wheelbase, is 5 inches wider, has a lower center of gravity, and pulls .04 more g's.

I used to tow my boat with both a ford ranger and jeep cherokee before using our current toyota sienna minivan and it is a night and day difference. The van tows so much better than either of the other vehicles.

[TilliamWe]

fsds, it's about weight distribution, suspension, and braking systems. Learn what that means, and then you can comment intelligently.
But I'll give you a clue, it's that the TB has a greater Capacity to handle the extra load. It will stop shorter with the towed load, I guarantee it. It'll also handle better with the towed load due to its weight and its suspension. (Think of it this way... His minivan will stop faster than a Freightliner Century Class Tractor unloaded, but if that minivan had a 40,000lb trailer attached to it, do you really think it'll stop faster?)
jkust, I don't have an alternative for you. I just didn't want you to be buying a TB thinking, well "it's just a 6cyl, so it'll be good on gas". Cause it's not. But if it will only go 2000 miles a year, then you are right the increased fuel costs are not too much to outweigh the increased towing capacity/safety.

[jkust]

I just looked up the numbers for 2000 model years of both vehicles and in 2wd versions they both weigh the same, have the same hp, same braking distance from 60, but the Silhouette has a 13 inch longer wheelbase, is 5 inches wider, has a lower center of gravity, and pulls .04 more g's.

Well you inadvertantly caught the fault with my post. I posted as though everone knew which Trailblazer I was thinking of. They actually totally remodeled the TB/Envoy in 2002 to have no resemblence to the 2000 which is a Blazer with a Trailblazer package. You make a good point on the stopping distance from 60 I didn't really think of. I am thinking of a 2005 since that is when stability control became standard. I can't wait to see what the 35mpg Obamamobiles will tow.

[fsds123]

[QUOTE=TilliamWe;2120961]fsds, it's about weight distribution, suspension, and braking systems. Learn what that means, and then you can comment intelligently.
But I'll give you a clue, it's that the TB has a greater Capacity to handle the extra load. It will stop shorter with the towed load, I guarantee it. It'll also handle better with the towed load due to its weight and its suspension. (Think of it this way... His minivan will stop faster than a Freightliner Century Class Tractor unloaded, but if that minivan had a 40,000lb trailer attached to it, do you really think it'll stop faster?)
jkust, I don't have an alternative for you. I just didn't want you to be buying a TB thinking, well "it's just a 6cyl, so it'll be good on gas". Cause it's not. But if it will only go 2000 miles a year, then you are right the increased fuel costs are not too much to outweigh the increased towing capacity/safety.[/QUOTE

Please don't talk down to me when it is you who obviously don't have a clue. Trailer brakes stop the trailer and vehicle brakes stop the vehicle. The TB does NOT have any greater capacity because if it did it would stop shorter empty. You know nothing about physics and engineering.

I also tow a camper and this type of discussion gets brought up from time to time on the RV forum. Someone in Canada regularly tests different tow vehicles with trailers and also does braking distances. Trucks and SUV's almost always have longer braking distances and handle worse than the cars and minivans they test. I don't have a copy of the braking distance but here is one for the slalom speed and emergency lane change.

[TilliamWe]

Just cause you tow a camper doesn't mean you know anything.

jkust, you know that a Trailblazer will be an improvement. This guy is advocating to continue to tow well in excess of your manufacturer's tow rating. Does that seem like a good idea? I hate frivolous lawsuits, but it's because of guys like this that they happen. He would last 30 seconds on a witness stand with a Plaintiff's attorney before looking like a fool. The only question to ask is, "So you knowingly towed in excess of your vehicle's rating, just because it stops a little faster unladen?" End of case, $40 gazillion dollars to the Plaintiff.
Common sense prevails, and you are on the right path jkust. Go test a TB and see for yourself.

[fsds123]

Just cause you tow a camper doesn't mean you know anything.

jkust, you know that a Trailblazer will be an improvement. This guy is advocating to continue to tow well in excess of your manufacturer's tow rating. Does that seem like a good idea? I hate frivolous lawsuits, but it's because of guys like this that they happen. He would last 30 seconds on a witness stand with a Plaintiff's attorney before looking like a fool. The only question to ask is, "So you knowingly towed in excess of your vehicle's rating, just because it stops a little faster unladen?" End of case, $40 gazillion dollars to the Plaintiff.
Common sense prevails, and you are on the right path jkust. Go test a TB and see for yourself.

Car manufacturers do not write laws, so manufacturers tow ratings mean nothing in a court of law. Ask any cop. Find me any case where anyone was ever sited for towing over manufacturers ratings. You can't.

I love how people have no issue with driving a less safe, worse braking, worse handling, lower mpg vehicle the 95% of the time they are NOT towing, and then get all bent out of shape about safety the 5% of time they are towing.

[soonerdg]

Not sure what model you're looking at but here's a few things you should know about the TB vs you van and some numbers to back it up.

First, the TB is not built on a truck chassis. It's chassis is tuned much softer to provide a smoother ride but at the expense of some handling. The TB is very prone to chassis roll.

Now for the good stuff. Your van has a GVWR of 5357 lbs. That's the maximun weight it can haul. It has a curb weight of 3948 lbs, therefore, the maximum payload of passengers, gear, trailer etc is 1409lbs.

The TB has a GVWR of 5749 lbs but has a much higher curb weight at 4601 lbs. Meaning, the maximum payload of the TB is 1148 lbs. Almost 300 lbs less than your van. If you're towing a 3500 lb rig your are far exceeding the towing capacity of either of these vehicles.

These numbers are based on the 2002 trailblazer which was the first year that chevy produced them.

[bekosh]

If you're towing a 3500 lb rig your are far exceeding the towing capacity of either of these vehicles.

These numbers are based on the 2002 trailblazer which was the first year that chevy produced them.

No. Just. No.
The TB can handle 3500lbs without a problem. I'm right at 4800lb with my trailer and the TB does just fine. And is within the recommended towing capacity.
http://www.heartlandrvs.com/vehicle-tow-ratings.html
A quick look shows the '02 model has a rating between 4800-6400lb depending how it's equiped. The main factor is the gear ratio. 3.42 gears give you a lower end rating, the 4.10's put you in the higher ratings.

[soonerdg]

I stand corrected!

[bekosh]

I stand corrected!

No prob.
Where you went wrong with your numbers, was that you were looking at GVWR. You needed to look at GCWR (Gross COMBINED weight rating). That is the total weight of truck and trailer.

For ex. The GCWR for a typical '07 TB is 11,000lb. Curb weight is aprox. 4600lbs.
11,000-4600=5400lbs towing capacity.

And yes, at about 9800lb combined, my rig is closer to it's limits than would be ideal. I think the "experts" on iboats usually recommend 80-90% capacity max.

[CaptOchs]

fsds123,
My brother has an 06 TB. He tows a 5000 lb camper with probably 1000lbs of crap in it. He says the engine overheats on bigger hills. It probably wouldn't be so bad if his wife wouldn't overload it.

I do understand your concerns and I realize towing a camper vs boat is different; I do both! I don't think you'll have any trouble losing 9 inches though. You might need to invest in a different receiver. Your mini-van rides lower so if you reuse the same receiver you might see sway if the ball sits too high on the TB. If you're looking for a professional opinion, get a trailer inspection. NY requires yearly inspections on all trailers, ($9.) I had my receiver pitch adjusted last year for my camper inspection.

As long as you're in the market for a new tow vehicle you might want to check for a hidden incentive often not posted on the stickers. Check http://www.e85fuel.com/index2.php for Ethanol compatibility. If gas prices get high again, it's nice to have an alternative to gas. I was paying $2.85/gallon when gas was $4.20/gallon.

[This_lil_fishy]

Car manufacturers do not write laws, so manufacturers tow ratings mean nothing in a court of law. Ask any cop. Find me any case where anyone was ever sited for towing over manufacturers ratings. You can't.

I love how people have no issue with driving a less safe, worse braking, worse handling, lower mpg vehicle the 95% of the time they are NOT towing, and then get all bent out of shape about safety the 5% of time they are towing.

I am hoping you're a troll....seriously...

First, the trailer brakes are not enough to stop the trailer, what they do is reduce weight transfer to the vehicle under braking. I've seen a trailer break loose and fire the emergency brake...it slows the trailer to a stop, but no where near as fast as hitting the brakes on your vehicle. Drum brakes in particular are not very good when loaded.

Second, over loading a vehicle is actually a chargeable offence, and depending on where you live, you will eventually get charged. Here in Ontario we have a special squad (we call them the green hornets as they have green and white markings instead of black and white like a cop) that will not only charge you, but impound your vehicle if they deem the vehicle is unsafe or overloaded....regardless of where your vehicle is registered (here or the US).

Even if you cannot not be criminally charged where you live, there's still the possibility of being sued in civil court for damages if you hurt someone becuase your trailer is overloaded. Also your insurance company may not honor your policy if you exceeded the safe rating of your tow vehicle in event of a collision or injury.

As for the OP's question, as was mentioned, what you need to look at is GCVWR to determine your actual load abilities. Also, I missed what year you're looking at, but I believe the 2002+ series was the end of the model and that engine. Our owners wife has one (2005) and the exhuast manifold rusted right through (not a bad bolt or gasket, but rusted a hole right through!) and we had to wait two weeks to get one from GM, and it wasn't cheap. In the end I wouldn't recommend that vehicle for personal use or towing for that matter. You'd be better off with a full size truck that has the same fuel mileage, and has far more uses.

Ian

[CaptOchs]

Over loading a vehicle is actually a chargeable offense, and depending on where you live, you will eventually get charged. Here in Ontario we have a special squad (we call them the green hornets as they have green and white markings instead of black and white like a cop) that will not only charge you, but impound your vehicle if they deem the vehicle is unsafe or overloaded

Even if you cannot not be criminally charged where you live, there's still the possibility of being sued in civil court for damages if you hurt someone because your trailer is overloaded. Also your insurance company may not honor your policy if you exceeded the safe rating of your tow vehicle in event of a collision or injury.

I guess I ought to warn this guy not to take his rig to Ontario... see pics...

[25thmustang]

FSDS, please tell me your kidding.

A minivan will stop in a shorter distance than my F250. But when you add an 8000 lb trailer to the back, do you really think the minivan will stop it quicker? Do you think it will handle it better?

It is a matter of physics, yes, but there is also a lot more to take into account than just stopping unloaded and expecting the same results when loaded...

Also in the test posted, did that say a 34' airstream camper on the back of a jag??? That must have been a sight for sore eyes. Let alone one doing slaloms and lane changes.

[This_lil_fishy]

I guess I ought to warn this guy not to take his rig to Ontario... see pics...

LOLS, yeah, I'd give him two miles on any major highway here (if it actually could travel that far) before getting yanked! Specially on any long weekend, as they really ramp up police presence on the highways. They do whole sections of the news dedicated to the unsafe vehicle/loads that were impounded...can't seem to do much about violent crime though...no money in that I guess.


Ian

[fsds123]

I am hoping you're a troll....seriously...

Second, over loading a vehicle is actually a chargeable offence, and depending on where you live, you will eventually get charged. Here in Ontario we have a special squad (we call them the green hornets as they have green and white markings instead of black and white like a cop) that will not only charge you, but impound your vehicle if they deem the vehicle is unsafe or overloaded....regardless of where your vehicle is registered (here or the US).

Even if you cannot not be criminally charged where you live, there's still the possibility of being sued in civil court for damages if you hurt someone becuase your trailer is overloaded. Also your insurance company may not honor your policy if you exceeded the safe rating of your tow vehicle in event of a collision or injury.

Ian

No troll here. Seriously, this has been discussed quite a bit on rv forums. Nobody has ever been sued for being over the vehicles recommended tow rating. Funny you mention Ontario. Ever heard of Can Am RV? They are based in Ontario and have set up cars and minivans for years with long and heavy trailers. They also test these set ups all the time and consistently cars and minivans handle the trailers better than suvs and trucks due to having better brakes and a lower center of gravity. I've posted the slalom results, and have read the braking results (can't seem to find them, but the cars did much better).

Here is a link to their website, check out the cars/airstream combos towards the bottom.

http://www.canamrv.ca/Home/Hidden/Te...0/Default.aspx

[TilliamWe]

So, then a Corvette would be the ultimate tow vehicle, right? Awesome brakes, long wheelbase (in relation to its overall length), and really low center of gravity. Sign me up!

[fsds123]

So, then a Corvette would be the ultimate tow vehicle, right? Awesome brakes, long wheelbase (in relation to its overall length), and really low center of gravity. Sign me up!

Corvettes have 14 inch rotors, and 3500/350 trucks have 13 inch rotors, and weigh twice as much. A Corvette will stop from 60mph in 120 feet...a Ford F350 takes 170 feet to do the same.

If you are going to tow all the time or a lot of the time by all means get a truck, no argument there. If your vehicle is going to be used primarily to get groceries/commute/etc, and you want to take your boat to the lake a few times a month, why recommend a vehicle that is less safe the whole time you are not towing? (probably 99% of the time for most people)

[sportsmanphil]

Good lord man, you couldn't be more wrong or off track.

Engineers design things like bridges, airplanes, cars etc. A part of their wisdom is to base things like how many tons a bridge is designed to handle, how much cargo an airplane can lift and how much a vehicle can tow/carry safely. These ratings are posted in the vehicle plate in the drivers door and IT IS LAW!

When a SHP or DOT officer pulls you he has the right to weigh you right on the side of the road. They have done it before, will do it again. If you are over weight, you get a nice fine and will not be leaving with all your cargo. You also need to look up 'contributory negligence'. If you go towing 3000lbs with a car rated for 1000lbs (ie the PT cruiser) and you end up in an accident; even if its not your fault, you are negligent and can be sued.

Also, what is the PT going to do on an wet/sandy boat ramp with a 3000lb boat behind it? Or what happens when the PT hits the mountains pulling that 2500lb camper? We called the PT a pregnant neon when I was with Chrysler. Those cars couldn't hold 80k miles without puking an engine, what do you expect towing more than its own curb weight?

********

Now let me educate you on vehicle brakes............you need it.

Lets take two vehicles. Lane 1 a PT cruiser and lane 2 is a Chevrolet Silverado. Each vehicle has a 3500lb trailer bolted to the hitch.

The PT weighs 3070 lbs
The Silverado's curb weight is 5735lbs

These vehicles are pulling the 3500lb trailers at 50 mph when all hell breaks loose! Both drivers stomp the brake to the floor.

There are only three things that matter when it comes to stopping the weight. It all sums up to drag coefficient (look it up)

1. How much contact do you have with the pavement? (4 tires)

2. How much weight do you have holding those tires down to the road?

With the PT, you have the nail trying to drive the hammer. The Silverado has almost twice the weight of the PT holding the tires to the road, where all your drag coefficient is being created.

I could type 2 pages on brake designs, but we need to start you out with baby steps it seems.

I'm not even going to try to explain the differences between Vette brakes vs. Suburban brakes.