'69 Evinrude 85hp Neutral Solenoid

edfresh · #1 August 22nd, 2003, 12:24 PM

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and to boating and have just been given an old 17' runabout with a '69 Evinrude 85hp motor (model# 85885E). It's has a Selectric shifter. I'm awaiting a reprint of the OMC manual that I won on EBay.

The motor will shift to forward and reverse but not neutral. I've read many of the posts here about the green/blue wires and no voltage for forward, etc. But where do I find the two solenoids to test them? Do I have to remove the bottom gear unit and if so, how? I purchased the Clymer manual and its not very clear on this.

Thanks and congrats on a great forum!

Ed Freshwater

edfresh · #2 August 22nd, 2003, 01:04 PM

Correction -- the motor model# is 85993E.

Sorry,

EdF

mrc · #3 August 23rd, 2003, 12:24 AM

The solinoids are accessable after removing lower unit. You should be able to test the impedence

from the motor without removing the lower unit.

On the opposite side of the engine from the starter

toward the head, there is two wires which lead to

the solinoids. There is a strip of rubber which

covers up a knife contact (which you use to

disconnect the wires when removing the lower unit).

Peel the rubber back to expose the knife contacts.

Disconnect the knife contact and measure resistance

to the block thus testing the solinoids.

Mike

edfresh · #4 August 23rd, 2003, 11:58 AM

Thanks Mike! I'll give it a try this afternoon.

Sure doesn't want to start with it not in neutral. (Just got the boat for free and have no idea of the motor condition.)

Thanks,

EdF

edfresh · #5 August 23rd, 2003, 06:03 PM

Mike,

I found the two wires (green and blue) on the right side that go down to the gear case. But they are insulated everywhere from the remote control by the captain's chair to where they dissapear down into the gear housing. There are no "knife" joints or any terminals from which to disconnect in order to get a reading. I could cut them to test but would then have to reconnect them in a water tight fashion. I determined that the forward, reverse, and neutral switches properly pass voltage and since forward and reverse work properly, I assume its the neutral solenoid. And since the boat was free and in unknown condition, I guess I must remove the gear housing for general inspection and water pump rebuilding.

Comments?

Thanks Mike,

EdF

Joe Reeves · #6 August 23rd, 2003, 08:12 PM

Ed..... The following should make the operating procedure of the "Hydro Electric Shift" system clear. Those two shift wires should have a connection whereas you could disconnect them at the powerhead.... a knife type connection covered by a rubber insulating sleeve.

(Hydro Electric Shift)

The shifting setup of the lower unit is what's called a "Hydro Electric Shift", which is quite complex consisting of voltage being applied to solenoids in the lower unit which in turn change oil passages via a oil pump that supplies various pressure on a spring loaded shifter dog. The wires leading to the lower unit (at the powerhead) are "Green" and "Blue". The engine must be running or cranking over in order to shift out of forward gear.

You CAN NOT use HI VIS lube in that lower unit. You MUST USE what OMC calls "Preminum Blend" lube, commonly called "Type C". (A thinner lube)

In neutral, you need 12v to the "Green" wire.

In reverse, you need 12v to both wires, the "Green" one and the "Blue" one.

In forward, there should be no voltage to either wire. (The spring loaded shifter dog forces the unit into forward gear)

To check the lower unit for proper shifting to make sure you have no trouble there, remove the spark plugs to avoid problems and to allow a higher cranking speed.

This next step eliminates the actual shift switch in case problems may exist there.... Disconnect the blue & green wires at the knife connectors (the rubber insulated boots) leading to the lower unit at the powerhead, then using jumpers, take voltage direct from the starter solenoid to apply voltage to the "Green" wire for neutral, then both wires 'Green" & "Blue" for reverse (Remember the engine must be cranking over in order to shift).

With no voltage applied, the unit should be in forward. No need for a ground jumper... the lower unit's already grounded. You may crank the engine with the key switch or by energizing the starter solenoid with a jumper wire.

mrc · #7 August 24th, 2003, 02:58 PM

Seing as how with this design, both solinoids are operating when the motoer is in reverse, I would

say that the solinoid which is activated to put it neutral must be functional. My suspect at this point

is the switch in the control box. As per Joe's post,

verify that there is 12V on the green wire.

In regards to the knife disconnects, they are not

"obvious". Look for a rubber sleeve over the wires

near where they exit the powerhead area to go to

the lower unit. This rubber sleeve can be slid up

the wire to expose interlocking knife disconnects.

Mike

edfresh · #8 August 25th, 2003, 05:47 AM

Joe & Mike,

Thanks so much for the informative responses!

First off, let me say that neutral is now working. I changed the gear oil which looked a little creamy. (The drain plugs don't have the washers that they should.) Also, I had the control box out testing it which may have giggled something. (Voltage for all three switches were good.) So I'll change the oil a few more times to flush it well.

After rereading your posts I realize that I found the knife connections. If needed later, I now know where they are -- just hard to slide the rubber to expose the connections.

Joe - I used Castrol 80-90W marine gear oil (which seemed to work). However, it seems now that I need to replace it with OMC "Type C" oil -- will do.

Mike - I understand what you said. I will recheck the neutral switch to make sure its not intermittant.

Now I'm off (to work first, Boy Scouts second and then) to find out why I get no juice to the plugs. I'll probably replace the coil(s), condenser(s), rotor, and points and then check. I understand it could be the amplifier.

Thanks so much!

EdF

Joe Reeves · #9 August 25th, 2003, 06:19 AM

Ed.... Castrol 80-90W is the same viscosity as the "HiVis" I mentioned that will not work in that unit (too heavy). You're learning. Good luck.

mrc · #10 August 25th, 2003, 07:16 AM

Ed, you'll find it prohibatively expensive to replace

those things just to find out what the problem is.

My suggestion is to verify proper voltage to the

amplifier. Then test the amplifier per one of

Joe Reeves many posts on the subject (not yet in

this thread though).

Pull flywheel and visually inspect spark plug

wires and points. Verify points for correct gap.

Check coil.

Hope that it's not the amplifier.

Good luck

Mike

edfresh · #11 August 25th, 2003, 10:57 AM

Joe - I'll get the "premium blend".

Mike - I just found out that the parts I mentioned will total over $400!! Guess I'll need to determine specifically what's wrong. I did find that there's no voltage coming out of the amplifier. Hopefully the problem is further upstream.

Thanks again,

EdF

Joe Reeves · #12 August 25th, 2003, 07:02 PM

MRC.... I missed that notice about the no spark thing pertaining to the amplifier. Thanks for the nudge.

Ed.... here's the info MRC spoke of. How to check the amplifier (powerpack).

(Battery Capacitance Dischage Powerpack Test)

Various OMC Engines - 1968 to 1972)

Purchase a small 12v bulb at your local automotive parts store (the 12v bulb is to look like a flashlight bulb, not a headlight bulb). Solder two wires to that bulb, one to the side of the bulb (ground), and the other to the positive point.

Remove the spark plugs. With the key in the on position, make sure that you have 12v going to the pack at the terminal block (purple wire). Now, connect the ground wire from the bulb to any powerhead ground. Connect the wire from the positive point of that bulb to the powerpack wire that is connected to the coil wire on the terminal board (blue wire).

Crank the engine and observe that bulb closely (CLOSELY!). If that bulb glows even the slightest bit, the powerpack is okay. It may be a very dim glow... just so it glows! If it doesn't glow, the pack has failed.

Keep in mind, that type powerpack (Battery Capacitance Discharge) demands a top notch battery of at least 70 amp hours. Any less will, in time, cause powerpack failure.

edfresh · #13 August 26th, 2003, 05:48 AM

Joe,

The Clymer manual (still awaiting the original OMC manual) says to attach a CD test meter to the #5 terminal to test the amplifier output. So I used a generic voltmeter, looking for about 250 volts. I got no output. I think that means that either the amplifier is bad or something upstream (coils, etc.).

Does the test you provided definitavely determine whether or not the amplifier is bad or could your test failure be caused by bad input to the amp? Since it is so very expensive, I want to be sure!

Thanks again!,

Ed Freshwater

mrc · #14 August 26th, 2003, 06:53 AM

Ed, the coil is "downstream" from the amplifier.

The inputs are from the points and the ignition

switch.

Working from memory here, so take with grain of salt

and verify with wiring diagram.

Ignition switch supplies 12V to amplifier.

Points go to ground 4 times per revolution of

flywheel.

Amplifier supplies voltage to coil based on points

grounding out (or opening up).

If the points are non-functional, then the amplifier is going to be non-functional.

I wouldn't trust a voltmeter in this scenario,

perhaps you could use an O-scope, but not too

many people have those. The reason I wouldn't

trust the voltmeter is that the voltage spike

from the amplifier is of such short duration that

it may not register on a standard averageing

AC voltmeter (And I doubt DC range would stand

a chance either).

edfresh · #15 August 26th, 2003, 07:14 AM

OK Mike/Joe,

I'll try the bulb test on the amp and look for a small glow. If I get a low glow that means that the points are providing and intermittant voltage correctly, then I'll check the coil to see if its getting that far. However, I still think that no glow could be caused by bad points (always open or closed). Is that right??

Also, I'll take off the flywheel and inspect the points, rotor, cap for general condition.

You know, I really appreciate this help. I feel I'm getting to know the technical part of you two!?

EdF

mrc · #16 August 26th, 2003, 09:05 AM

Yes a problem with the points or corresponding wiring

will result in no spark (or glow during the

lightbulb test)

Mike

Xcusme · #17 August 26th, 2003, 03:36 PM

You could use a small test circuit like this one too. The 2 parts are available at just about any electronics store or Radio Shack. Since this uses a L.E.D. , it makes a difference which way you connect it. If you hook it up backwards, no harm, but it won't light up. The resistor's value (4.7K ohms) isn't critical, but this value shown limits the current to the L.E.D. to around 20-25ma. Don't try to connect the L.E.D. without the current limiting resistor, it can destroy the L.E.D.

This test circuit uses a very small amount of current to light the L.E.D. and should be very easy to see. No more looking for a filament bulb to 'just start glowing"

edfresh · #18 August 27th, 2003, 05:18 AM

Thanks Xcuseme. Nice idea to use an LED.

edfresh · #19 August 27th, 2003, 05:26 AM

Joe/Mike,

I visited the local boat store yesterday and a serviceman suggested dumping the "free" '69 85hp Evinrude we've been discussing and purchasing a newer used motor. He said I will end up replacing the amp/powerpack frequently and that at about $300 per copy that alone would pay for newer Evinrude or whatever. What are your expert advices? Other than ensuring 12+ volts on the battery, what else can kill the amp? Is it worth it? I wanted to put $300-$500 into this nonrunning "Free" motor that seems to be in good condition, not buy a motor for > $1000.

Thanks again,

EdF