Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Jeff Holcomb

Recruit
Joined
Dec 1, 2002
Messages
3
Hi Howdy! Thanks for your suggestions about replacing the seals on my lower unit. I'm thinking of upgrading my 20 horse Johnson electric start. Some guys say buy a 2 stroke before the 2006 requirements make them more complicated. Some guys say buy a 4 stroke now that meets the new requirements, but I hear they are more expensive to service and have lots more parts. Any opinions?
 

miloman

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Nov 3, 2002
Messages
1,181
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Hi there this summer I had the pleasure of testing 225 s troke evinrudes with the factory if interested the article is in power boating magazine anyway lots of misunderstanding a 2 stroke is equally as efficient as a 4 stroke wieghs less comsumes about the same as a 4 stroke and when you change a 4 stroke where does the oil go any more questions feel free to ask
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Most folks misunderstand the 2006 EPA regulations. They do not outlaw 2 stroke outboards. The regulations determine that the an outboard company's hydrocarbon and oxides of Nitrogen average for all of its motors must be 75% less than the 1996 average. That's all, it does not affect any particular engine.<br /><br />It does mean that there will be fewer traditional carbureted 2 strokes available in the future.
 

Boatist

Rear Admiral
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Messages
4,552
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

You may be right about the 2006 regulation but three lakes in California right not have band 2 stroke outboards. Lake Tahoe and two small lake used for drinking water. Will this trend spread???
 

seahorse5

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
4,698
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Boatist,<br /><br />You are correct about Lake Tahoe and a few lakes in CA. There are areas all over the country that have waters that allow NO motors at all, and have been that way for years.<br /><br />None of this is applies to the EPA 2006 regulations that are nationwide. It is only local issues.<br /><br />You do know that the Lake Tahoe patrol boats replaced their 4-stroke outboards with Evinrude FICHTS because they emit fewer total emissions than the 4-strokes?
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Hi Brogman. All outboards are very good these days, and I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of them now or later. You'll be hard pressed to find any 20 hp though. Most manufacturers offer either a 25 hp or a 15.<br /><br />But you wanted opinions, so.... :D <br /><br />First lets make it clear that you're talking about a 20 hp, not a big direct injection or Ficht. I highly doubt the little 20's will ever see direct injection (they aren't even EFI yet, but who knows maybe someday). We do know they come in 4-strokes. So all the articles, and hype about how fabulous the direct injection 2-stroke's are, won't really help you here.<br /><br />Not sure of your use, but I only see two reasons to buy a 20 hp 2-stroke over the 4-stroke. Initial cost savings, and weight. You'll pick up about 20 lbs extra with the 4-stroke at it will cost a little more. However, you'll probably get a longer warranty, higher output alternator, fresh water flush system, and options not available on the small 2-stroke like electric start, power trim/tilt and external tilt switches, remote steering, and high-thrust and long shaft options. You'll even find an extra cylinder on some 4-strokes and you won't have to pre-mix your fuel/oil. They cost more and weigh more for a reason. Quite, smooth, and efficient. Emissions are the last reason to own a 4-stroke.<br /><br />As far as the "more parts myth".....it hasn't shown to be a problem. These parts are lubricated using a pressurized oiling system which the 2-stroke does not have. We just aren't seeing bunches of 4-stroke failures because of too many parts. More expensive to service? I don't think so. Having equipment that you can service is a good thing. Getting the dirt and metal particles out of the crankcase (changing oil) is a good thing. Ask yourself which outboard is more prone to piston failure as a result of higher cylinder temperatures, or premature wear and failure due to the lack of a pressurized lubrication system? Repairs like this usually make up for any preventative service you may have to perform.<br /><br />I own a charter and guide operation. The 4-strokes cost less to own and operate. They last longer, resale better, and need very little maintenance and practically zero repairs. More importantly, they are more enjoyable to own. I can't bad-mouth the 2-strokes though (except for the Fichts). They helped build my business by working hard.<br /><br />Opinions of course.... :D
 

Forktail

Ensign
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
977
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

miloman, did you help Evinrude do the comparison testing? Cool!<br /><br />You commented that a "2 stroke is equally as efficient as a 4 stroke." I assume you mean just the outboard industry? It seems like the outboard industry is doing everything possible, and trying in every way, to make the 2-strokes more efficient. And doing a good job too! But all the time the 4-strokes seem to just plug along without efficiency concerns. My point is that the 4-strokes seem to have a lot more room for improvement with many untouched areas of ways to make those improvements. Whereas the 2-strokes seem to be pushing the limit. 2-strokes are incorporating cutting edge technology (while it's being developed) to make such claims as keeping up with the 4-stroke, while the 4-stroke outboard industry has yet to explore many other technologies. 4-stroke outboards really haven't changed since the 70's. For example, 4-stroke cam-less engines are successfully being developed in the auto industry. 4-stroke high pressure split-shot fuel injection systems have been produced in autos for a long time. Lightweight sump-less 4-strokes are showing up in snowmobile technology. Emissions in 4-stroke automobiles is practically zero. Outboards haven't needed to go there yet.<br /><br />What will come of the 2-stroke after 2006 when things get even more strict? And after that?<br /><br />IMO, there are inherent flaws and limitations with a 2-stroke that will eventually cause it to lose out to the 4-stroke. This is very sad. I love 2-strokes. <br /><br />One of those flaws is the fact that the 2-stroke fires every revolution of the crankshaft whereas the 4-stroke fires ever other. Good news for the 2-stroke is that this produces more power per cubic inch of displacement. Bad news is that, although the 2-stroke is firing twice as often, it does not produce twice as much power. You'd think it should, but it doesn't This is because of another flaw of 2-strokes, excessive fuel scavaging, that results in inefficient fuel/air charging into the cylinder (raw fuel sucked through the intake port gets pushed out the exhaust port before it can be ignited). A conventional 2-stroke puts out about 20 - 60% more power than an equivalent sized 4-stroke. About 30% of the fuel/oil mixture enters the exhaust before it is burned. Additionally a portion of the burned exhaust gas remains in the combustion chamber during the next cycle, taking up room for the next fresh charge. Efficiency is lower than expected, at least compared to a 4-stroke.<br /><br />Now the direct injection and Ficht 2-strokes help solve fuel scavaging by directing high pressure fuel directly into the cylinder after the exhaust cycle, which helps a lot. But it does not make them "efficient" per say. Direct injection or not, 2-strokes have a higher frequency of combustion (firing every revolution). This creates higher average heat transfer rates from the cylinder...another flaw. Higher heat transfer means less efficient, and wasted energy.<br /><br />The higher combustion frequency of 2-strokes also creates higher temperatures and thermal stresses in the cylinder compared to 4-strokes, especially in the head and piston crown area. This is why you will find many powerhead failures in 2-strokes due to siezed or "blown" pistons and leaking head gaskets. Not so common with the 4's. Direct injection 2-strokes run even hotter in the combustion chamber, and typically need more lubrication (oil). Ironically, most direct injected 2-strokes inject oil directly into the crankcase, not the cylinder.<br /><br />Another flaw with the 2-stroke is it's inability to control exhaust timing. Much of the intake and exhaust cycle in a 2-stroke is dependent upon exhaust resonance (back pressure) to obtain the next fuel/air charge. Without some way to regulate the size of the exhaust port a 2-stroke can only maximize efficiency at one particular rpm. It is a sacrifice throughout the rest of the powerband. Less efficient.<br /><br />In my opinion, the real advantage to 2-strokes over 4-strokes is not efficiency, durability, or servicability. It is strictly power to weight. Weight. And the 4-stroke market is closing that gap quickly.<br /><br />As for where does the oil from a 4-stroke go? Mine gets recycled at the landfill's oil recycle station...for free. Same as everyone's auto. A better question is, "how does that 2-stroke oil disappear like that....is it magic? Hey, what's that smell?"<br /><br />Much credit is due to the direct injected 2-strokes. But in giving that credit, many people misunderstand or ignore how fabulous the 4-strokes are in design, and where technology will lead them as well.<br /><br /> :D
 

Jeff Holcomb

Recruit
Joined
Dec 1, 2002
Messages
3
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Thanks for taking the time to detail your dialogue reagarding 2-stoke vs. 4-stroke engines. I was also told something else this weekend, that I want to verify. <br /><br />A boat dealer told me that my '73 Johnson 20 horse motor puts out only about 14 horse at the prop. He said since then, the horse power ratings have been changed to reflect the actual horse power at the prop. So he said a new 15 horse 4-stroke would compare to my 20 horse Johnson. True?
 

rickdb1boat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Messages
11,195
Re: Buy outboard before 2006 requirements?

Brogman,<br />That would be close, as the earlier engines were rated at the powerhead and the newer ones are rated at the Prop.
 
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