2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Im getting ready to order my new bass boat (21') First choice was either Merc optimax or Evinrude ficht 225's, but now with the 4 strokes out Yamaha 225 (not a big fan of Yamaha) But NOW! Honda has a 225 V-Tec 4 stroke, If its as good as the other Honda products it should be great. Any thoughts

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

wallco1, i prefer the fichts they are the fastest of the engines you mentioned and the lightest,i have ran several of them and they performed excellent.great mileage and performance to boot.

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Hi Wallco1;<br />I agree with Captain Black, Ficths are the way to go. I don't sell boats, don't even own one, just worked on them for many years.<br />Just my opinion

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Wallco1,<br />I'm not an expert like most of these guys on this board, but I have been doing some research on engines. I'm not sure that Honda, Yamaha, and Mercury ain't nearly the same powerheads. I don't know anything about the fichts, but if it's speed you want, these guys won't steer you wrong with their opinion. Just my two cents.<br />Jabo

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

If it doesn't sink your boat (it's almost 600#) I'd bet it will be reliable. But, don't expect it to accelerate like a 225 or even a 200 2 stoke. 4 stroke tend to lack low rpm torque. I recently saw a guy selling new (2001's) johnson 225HO's (247 hp) for $9900. Gas milage probably sucks but $7000 buys alot of gas.

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Just don't bet your title that that black 225 whatever is gonna be faster or quicker than the silver one.<br /><br />I keep hearing this myth about how 4 strokes don't have the "power" of 2 strokes. That's what it is: a myth. The truth is that people keep confusing noise with power. Foot-pounds are foot-pounds and horses are horses.<br /><br />Go find some actual comparisons on identical boats of equally rated engines.<br /><br />My Suzi DF70 EFI kicks serious butt on any "70" 2 stroke I have seen and dang near outruns my sons "more powerful" Merc 90. Our boats are identical.<br /><br />Red sky at night. . .<br />JB

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

For a bass boat, it really depends on the weight of the boat. For a lighter boat, you may want to go with the 2 stroke. Weight is a bi consideration. With a heavier bass boat, a heavier engine may not matter as much. you may be OK with the 4 stroke. Hopefully Bombardier has solved many of the reliability issues associated with Evinrudes and Johnsons of the late 90's (electrical and gear case problems)

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Ahoy, RJS. <br /><br />I think we differ a little. <br /><br />The definition of a pound-foot of torque is constant, as is the definition of units of measurement of power, be it Watts or Horsepower. Neither definition changes depending on the machine in questiom.<br /><br />When I said our boats are identical, I didn't mean same make or same length, I meant identical. They are both Boston Whaler Montauks, made in the same mold and weighing the same, dry. My engine weighs about 60-70lb more than his, so I have no weight advantage. I have the weight "disadvantage" you mentioned. If he carries one more adult than I do he cannot outrun me.<br /><br />We do agree that on Bassrockets transom weight can be a serious consideration. Many of them have the hydrodynamics of a shingle, though it makes them very stable, it also makes them downright dangerous trying to run in a chop and into the wind. Scares heck out of me just to watch them.<br /><br />Red sky at night. . .<br />JB

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

JB,<br /><br />HP is not HP, HP to weight is critical. In most circumstances, 2 stokes beat 4 strokes. In addition, when comparing different engines, it is key to that the comaprison is performed on the same hull design, not make of the boat. A flatter hull usually takes less HP than a V. I'm a newbie and enjoy your insight.

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Actually, there is more to the HP question then most people suspect..<br /><br />firstly, in most cases a 2 stroke will get better wholeshot for the simple reason that a four stroke has to spin a camshaft, push valves etc... and that extra overhead weight will slow down acceleration slightly over a 2 stroke which has no overhead moving parts, (except for those with exhaust port valves, which I don't know if outboards use. and is till alot less then a cam and valves anyway)<br /><br />Also, if you could see a dyno readout of a 4 stroke vrs a 2 stroke the picture would probably be alittle clearer.<br /><br />generally speaking, high performance 2 strokes have a narrow powerband, (powerband being the rev range where peak power is produced.)<br /><br />If kept in that rev range, then a two stroke is nearly unbeatable. (hence 2 stage props and stuff)<br /><br />A four stroke motor usually has a gentler curve as far as powerband goes, its not a spike as it usually is with 2 strokes its more of a curve.. meaning that usable power is actually better on a four stroke as it will have more power when near but not in its peak rev range. (in general useage.)<br /><br /><br />So in essence, the truth for 2 vrs 4 in outboards is the same as it is for motocross engines..<br /><br />if you need to go really hard really fast then you get a 2 stroke..<br /><br />if you need to go fairly hard alot, and reasonably quickly with more general usage and less racing.. a four stroke might be the go.<br /><br />One thing that concerns me though..<br /><br />four strokes by their very design should weight significantly more then their 2 stroke brethren.. and yet this isn't really the case anymore, the weight is getting fairly close to 2 stroke levels..<br />That worries me, because they should weight more, cams, valves, valveguides, cam chains or gears etc do weigh a significant amount.. <br /><br />so if the weight is bordering on the same levels of a 2 stroke, there has to be a reason why.. and that reason is usualy things like no seperate cam bearings, hollow components, thiner materials etc..<br /><br />The occasional result being the recent spate of suzuki owners (DF70 and thereabouts) complaining that they snapped the end off their camshaft. I suspect that if you took a stock DF70 and a stock OMC 70hp 2 stroke, and put them under absolute maximium load at WOT side by side, (given that fuel and oil where needed is optimium) that the four stroke would fail before the 2 stroke..<br /><br />for general use though, the tables would possibly turn.<br /><br />Just some stuff to think about..<br /><br />I raced a 2 stoke motocross bike for several years, and there were no 4 stroke in the competition at all, because at that level they couldn't cut it. (enduros however are perfect for 4 strokes) a 2 stroke 80cc motor produces more hp then a 250 cc fourstroke from the same company. (Honda CR80 vrs XR250)<br />The XR makes some of that back up by having more torque, (it should do, its more then 3 times the size of the 80) but in a high demand enviroment, the 2 stokes win..<br /><br />also, the 2 stroke in this case can rev to around 12000 rpm, the 4 stroke however is limited to about 8000 if I remember correctly..<br /><br />anyway, apologies for the long post.. just thought some actual discussion of the reasons might be in order rather then a buch of posts saying one is better then the other with not alot of reasons why.<br /><br />the simple truth of the matter is that you can't really go wrong in either case.<br /><br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

JB,<br />I agree that the definition of HP remains constant, but in regards to performance, the ratio of HP to Wt is critical. 2-strokes and 4-strokes both have their place. On a light boat, the effects of a heavy engine hanging off the transom is likely to adversely effect hole shot and the boats overall buoyancy (follwing seas and backwash comming of plane). I think that 4-strokes have the advantage in the portable and midrange class, but in the 150-200 range, only time will tell. I wish they could get the price down a bit. Has anyone seen the price tag of the new Honda and Yamaha 200 4-stokes. The direct fuel injection 2-stokes are chump change either! I'll put up with breathing the blue smoke until then.

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

In regards to the whaler comparison, JB, you mention that both boats weigh exactly the same, fresh out of the mold? I agree, but do they carry the same exact gear and stowage? If so, is it positioned in exactly the same place on both boats? <br /><br />How about set-up? Does each boat have the optimum x-dimension, optimum trim position and optimum propeller? Just some thoughts, as set-up is everything.<br /><br />Now, I must say, that not every large two-stroke motor is attached to a "Bassrocket", In my opinion engine weight always matters on any boat, as the motor is attached to the extreme end of the boat, maximizing the leverage of this weight.<br /><br />On the subject of "Bassrockets", I guess you could compare these to "muscle cars". My question is, why attach the word "rocket" instead of a using the term Bass Boater? Should slower boats be called "Seaturtles"?<br /><br />We are all boaters here, and for one reason or another we take our pleasure in different ways, I dont feel that its respectful to lump boats in groups as being Fast and dangerous, Slow and safer/better, Expensive and safe/fast, or as I suspect, a to often implied, Entry level, rookie, underpowered, undependable boat. <br /><br />I know its easy to put boats and people in groups, I could easily do that with Jet-Skis, but really, its not fair, and is quite biased, Just slap me if I ever do the same! Its not easy! But I do feel that Bass Boaters deserve as much respect as any other group. OOPS! I used the word "group"!!!!

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

Hey ChainsawEvin,<br />If you don't think it's right to lump birds of a feather together, then don't do it. The biggest thing about this forum that I've seen so far is free speech. So take your own advice and live and let live.<br />Jabo

Re: 2 Stroke or 4 Stroke

JB: here's what I was trying to say about the 2 vs. 4 stroke deal.<br />4 strokes weigh more. If the boat floats it well enoungh then no problem but the Honda 225 is about the same weight as a OMC V8.<br />And- a honda 225 will probably hang with a 2 stroke 225 in midrange to top end just fine, but low rpm going to less. A 2 stroke is obviously less efficient than a 4, but that extra stroke does a lot to make up for that espcially at low rpms. A 4 stroke can have just as much overall power potential per given displacement, but it must spin up to higher rpms to achieve that which makes it hard to maintain torque down low. I'm sure the vtec gig helps this out, but per displacement a 2 stroke will a have an easier time producing good low speed torque. Since a 4 stroke must spin to make equivalent power, I suspect that all time WOT durability would be less than a 2 stroke at the same power output. However, in mixed use I would bet that the better lubrication methods of a 4 stroke would lead to better life. <br />Given the above it is my opinion that the correct engine choice depends on intended use. If the user intends on screaming it or needs a good holeshot on a heavy bassboat then 2 stoke would be a better choice. On something like a pontoon boat or a fishing rig that trolls alot and where weight is not that big of deal, I would personally choose a 4 stroke. That is why I suggested the $8995 johnson since it is going on a (21ft = heavy) bass boat.