3 simple electrical questions

A red and black wire runs from my battery to a round thing that has a red button in the center of it similar to an old door bell. The number 40 is written on it. <br /><br />First question...<br />Is this a 40 amp circuit breaker and does it just limit spikes of power from leaving the battery and damaging electrical equipment?<br /><br />2 of my boat's batteries can be connected in series or in parallel to run my trolling motor at 12 or 24. However I am not positive that some fish finders and accessories are not also connected to these batteries <br />Second question...<br />If I connect them to get 24 volts can I test the voltage that accessories will receive before they get 24volts and fuses are blown and electronics fried??<br /><br />The biggest question...My cranking battery appears to power the main engine and all accessories except for the trolling motor. I have 2 batteries (exclusively for the trolling motor, I think). One of these 2 batteries when connected will power the trolling motor. The other one won't power anything on its' own. Each of these 2 batteries have their own black and red wires connected to their own 40 amp cicuit breaker. There is no direct connection between the 2 batteries BUT there is one small jumper wire present. <br />Third question...<br />If you had to guess, why is this wire there...For charging, for making a series or parallel connection between the 2 batteries??? The boat works without connecting this jumper wire, but maybe the jumper needs to connect the 2 batteries so that both the batteries will function???

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

If there is only one wire connecting the two batteries then it is connected in series to produce 24 volts. The wire should go from the positive post of one battery and the negative post of the next battery.<br /><br />If you disconnect the battery connector going to the fish finder there should be two leads in the connector. Use a Volt meter set to DC volts and test this voltage. If it reads 24 volts it is going between both batteries. My guess is all accesories are only hooked to one battery and the trolling motor is hooked across both batteries. If this is the case then you should be okay for your 12 volt accesories.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Lets deal with the engine battery first. Look more carefully at the "round thing with the 40 on it". See if it has an ON-OFF setting (rotating knob or a push button). If it has an ON-OFF position, its a battery switch to totally disconnect the starting battery to prevent accidental discharge when unattended. If it does not have an ON-OFF setting but the center button affair seems to move when pressed, it is very likely a 40A circuit breaker. It acts like a switch and opens if the electrical demand (such as a nasty short circuit) exceeds 40Amps. Like in your house, you reset the breaker by pushing the button. You can test whether accessories are powered by the starting battery by disconnecting the positive lead at the battery and then seeing what doesn't work. Reconnect to re-check.<br /><br />Now to the trolling batteries. There will typically be a red wire from BAT #1 POS and an orange wire from BAT #2 POS. Here's where it can get messy. There should be a short jumper wire between BAT #2 POS and BAT #1 NEG. A black wire should run from BAT #2 NEG to the trolling motor.<br /><br />Accessories can be wired to either of the trolling batteries and will always operate at 12V. The only way to get 24V to them (and likely ruin them) is to inadvertently or on purpose, wire them across both batteries. Whether a separate 12/24V switch panel is used or whether 12/24V switching is done at the trolling motor has no effect on the accessories. If you ever do an rewiring, DO NOT wire accessories to the 24V position on a separate switch panel.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

If the wire between the two batts goes from [+] to [+] then the batts are wired parallel for 12v applications.<br /><br />If the wire between the two batts goes from [+] to [-] then the batts are wired in series for 24v applications.<br /><br />If there is only that single wire on that second batt it isn’t being used in any configuration. There needs to be a wire on both the [+] and the [-] for both batts for them both to be in use.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by Upinsmoke:<br /> Lets deal with the engine battery first. Look more carefully at the "round thing with the 40 on it". See if it has an ON-OFF setting (rotating knob or a push button). If it has an ON-OFF position, its a battery switch to totally disconnect the starting battery to prevent accidental discharge when unattended. If it does not have an ON-OFF setting but the center button affair seems to move when pressed, it is very likely a 40A circuit breaker. It acts like a switch and opens if the electrical demand (such as a nasty short circuit) exceeds 40Amps. Like in your house, you reset the breaker by pushing the button. You can test whether accessories are powered by the starting battery by disconnecting the positive lead at the battery and then seeing what doesn't work. Reconnect to re-check.<br /><br />Now to the trolling batteries. There will typically be a red wire from BAT #1 POS and an orange wire from BAT #2 POS. Here's where it can get messy. There should be a short jumper wire between BAT #2 POS and BAT #1 NEG. A black wire should run from BAT #2 NEG to the trolling motor.<br /><br />Accessories can be wired to either of the trolling batteries and will always operate at 12V. The only way to get 24V to them (and likely ruin them) is to inadvertently or on purpose, wire them across both batteries. Whether a separate 12/24V switch panel is used or whether 12/24V switching is done at the trolling motor has no effect on the accessories. If you ever do an rewiring, DO NOT wire accessories to the 24V position on a separate switch panel.

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I looked closely at the 2 round things. No rotateable devices or on off switches so they must be 2 circuit breakers. Thanks for the explanation.<br /><br />In regards to your wiring pattern you mention a black from bat #2 neg connects to the trolling motor. But what positive connects to the trolling motor??? The red from bat #1 pos, the orange from bat #2 pos, or both??? Sadly, my boat doesn't have an orange, and both battery 1 and battery 2 have a red pos and a black neg wire. (2 batteries, 2 black wires, and 2 red wires and 2 40amp circuit breakers (and the mysterious jumper wire)). <br /><br />I also noticed a 12/24volt toggle switch on this control panel on the front of the boat by the trolling motor. The switch will not toggle and is stuck on 12v setting. There are 2 trolling motor plug sockets but the trolling motor doesn't plug into either socket. The wires dive behind this panel. <br /><br />Thanks for the help

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by 18R:<br /> If the wire between the two batts goes from [+] to [+] then the batts are wired parallel for 12v applications.<br /><br />If the wire between the two batts goes from [+] to [-] then the batts are wired in series for 24v applications.<br /><br />If there is only that single wire on that second batt it isn’t being used in any configuration. There needs to be a wire on both the [+] and the [-] for both batts for them both to be in use.

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Your reply makes a lot of sense to me. If I disconnect all 3 batteries nothing works. If I connect the "left" trolling motor battery's + and - to the left battery, the trolling motor spins and a fishfinder on the bow works. If I connect only the right trolling motor battery to its' + and - nothing works. Its like the right battery and the right battery's positive and negative wires are only taking up space on the boat. This is what made me ponder if the jumper wire was used to connect the 2 batteries to each other perhaps the right battery would finish it's coffee break and do some work. <br /><br />I was confused since one jumper wire would mean the battery's have to be in series = 24v=fried fish finder. Hence I haven't connected the jumper wire yet, and thought maybe it was just there for charging purposes or something. Wouldn't parallel wiring require 2 jumper wires between connecting the 2 batteries?

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by eurolarva:<br /> If there is only one wire connecting the two batteries then it is connected in series to produce 24 volts. The wire should go from the positive post of one battery and the negative post of the next battery.<br /><br />If you disconnect the battery connector going to the fish finder there should be two leads in the connector. Use a Volt meter set to DC volts and test this voltage. If it reads 24 volts it is going between both batteries. My guess is all accesories are only hooked to one battery and the trolling motor is hooked across both batteries. If this is the case then you should be okay for your 12 volt accesories.

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Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by eurolarva:<br /> If there is only one wire connecting the two batteries then it is connected in series to produce 24 volts. The wire should go from the positive post of one battery and the negative post of the next battery.<br /><br />If you disconnect the battery connector going to the fish finder there should be two leads in the connector. Use a Volt meter set to DC volts and test this voltage. If it reads 24 volts it is going between both batteries. My guess is all accesories are only hooked to one battery and the trolling motor is hooked across both batteries. If this is the case then you should be okay for your 12 volt accesories.

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Going to buy a volt meter and test the fish finder battery connector with the jumper connecting the batteries to see if it is getting 24volts. If I remember it has a set of pins. Perhaps touching the pins with the volt meter will allow for a reaing to be taken. I think your assumption about the accessories should be correct except for the fact that if I only connect the left battery to its' pos and neg cables the trolling motor spins and the fishfinder works so I think this means both are connected to that battery. <br />Thanks for the good advice

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

You need to determine if the trolling motor is a 12V only, 24V only, or a combo 12/24V version. Any of these will run on 12V but a 24V will develop only a fraction of its power running on 12V. If the boat has a separate 12/24 switch panel at the front, that would explain why there are two sets of wires (2 red, 2 black) going to the switch panel for the trolling motor. The switch then feeds the trolling motor receptacle(s) in either a 12 or 24 V configuration. Most later motors have a 12/24V switch on the foot control and use the wiring configuration I mentioned earlier (One red, one orange, and one black with the short jumper between the two batteries.) I really think you have a 12/24 or a 24V trolling motor and therefore the second battery is needed. It's also possible that the original motor has been replaced so we really don't know what you are dealing with. You need to remove the swtich panel and see where the wires go. It may be that one of the receptacles was added after the switch failure and the switch panel is not being used. After determining what trolling motor voltage is needed (12, 24, or both) we can then work around that panel. I would not expect the locator or any other accessory to be receiving 24V.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by Upinsmoke:<br /> You need to determine if the trolling motor is a 12V only, 24V only, or a combo 12/24V version. Any of these will run on 12V but a 24V will develop only a fraction of its power running on 12V. If the boat has a separate 12/24 switch panel at the front, that would explain why there are two sets of wires (2 red, 2 black) going to the switch panel for the trolling motor. The switch then feeds the trolling motor receptacle(s) in either a 12 or 24 V configuration. Most later motors have a 12/24V switch on the foot control and use the wiring configuration I mentioned earlier (One red, one orange, and one black with the short jumper between the two batteries.) I really think you have a 12/24 or a 24V trolling motor and therefore the second battery is needed. It's also possible that the original motor has been replaced so we really don't know what you are dealing with. You need to remove the swtich panel and see where the wires go. It may be that one of the receptacles was added after the switch failure and the switch panel is not being used. After determining what trolling motor voltage is needed (12, 24, or both) we can then work around that panel. I would not expect the locator or any other accessory to be receiving 24V.

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Upinsmoke...<br /><br />The trolling motor has the option of 12 or 24volt. It has a toogle switch on the foot pedal, and the motor only spins if the 12 volt setting is toggled. <br /><br />Just to elaborate on the switch panel...it has 2 plug sockets. One plug socket says trolling motor only GND, 12v, 24v and has 3 males sticking out of it (so it would need the trolling motor to be the female). The other socket has 2 males and is labeled Charger or 12v Acc. Between those 2 plug sockets is a toggle switch that is labeled 12v or dual charge on top and 24v run on the bottom. This switch doesn't toggle so I pulled it out, noticed it isn't connected to any wires, and is a bit melted and is labeled a 12v Carlingswitch. The other buttons on the panel all work (motor tilt, fill live wells, and courtesy light), and the charger fuse is in good shape. Perhaps the burnt switch is why the trolling motor is not plugged into the trolling motor plug socket and the trolling motor's wires dive behind the panel. I think this is what you were thinking? I'm going to pull the panel so I can trace some wires.<br /><br />Does this mean the boat has an "onboard charger" that may or may not work on account of the burnt switch and customized wiring? I've been connecting a charger directly to the batteries and charging them independently.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

OK -- we are getting somewhere. The reason you had two separate sets of wires from the batteries is that the toggle switch for 12V/Dual charge allowed a 12V charger to be plugged into the CHARGE ONLY socket (the one with two pins). The 12V Dual switch was required to allow both batteries to be charged simultaneously. This means your boat DOES NOT have an on-board charger. If the trolling batteries were wired as I indicated in my first post (one red, one orange, and one black), the single 12V charger would not work to charge both batteries and I won't get into that as the post would get long. If your rig was mine, I would do the following: Remove the panel and make sure the red wire from the POS terminal on one of the batteries (call it BAT #1) connects to one pin (24V) on the three pin socket. Connect an Orange wire (same gauge as red) to the 12V pin on the three pin socket and to the POS terminal on BAT #2. Connect only one black wire (same gauge as red and orange) to the GND pin on the three pin socket. Here is were the short jumper comes into play. Connect it between POS terminal on BAT #2 and the NEG terminal on BAT #1. This is the wire that puts BAT #1 and BAT #2 in series to make 24V. Make sure you have a circuit breaker at the POS terminals on BAT #1 and BAT #2. So now plugging in the trolling motor will give you 12V (using only BAT #2, or 24V operation (using both batteries in series) using only the foot switch on the motor controller. The charging switch and socket on the panel will no longer function. After doing this, do yourself a favor and buy a dual bank on board charger that is 12/24V capable. You can use a single 12V charger but you need to charge both batteries separately which is a pain the behind. Be aware that many two-bank chargers don't have this capability as they have common grounds and won't work on a 12/24 system unless a switch panel like yours is used. Just buy a good on-board charger and forget the nonsense of the switch panel. Plug in at the dock in the evening and both batteries will be up to snuff in the morning. If you need more help just give a shout.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by Upinsmoke:<br /> OK -- we are getting somewhere. The reason you had two separate sets of wires from the batteries is that the toggle switch for 12V/Dual charge allowed a 12V charger to be plugged into the CHARGE ONLY socket (the one with two pins). The 12V Dual switch was required to allow both batteries to be charged simultaneously. This means your boat DOES NOT have an on-board charger. If the trolling batteries were wired as I indicated in my first post (one red, one orange, and one black), the single 12V charger would not work to charge both batteries and I won't get into that as the post would get long. If your rig was mine, I would do the following: Remove the panel and make sure the red wire from the POS terminal on one of the batteries (call it BAT #1) connects to one pin (24V) on the three pin socket. Connect an Orange wire (same gauge as red) to the 12V pin on the three pin socket and to the POS terminal on BAT #2. Connect only one black wire (same gauge as red and orange) to the GND pin on the three pin socket. Here is were the short jumper comes into play. Connect it between POS terminal on BAT #2 and the NEG terminal on BAT #1. This is the wire that puts BAT #1 and BAT #2 in series to make 24V. Make sure you have a circuit breaker at the POS terminals on BAT #1 and BAT #2. So now plugging in the trolling motor will give you 12V (using only BAT #2, or 24V operation (using both batteries in series) using only the foot switch on the motor controller. The charging switch and socket on the panel will no longer function. After doing this, do yourself a favor and buy a dual bank on board charger that is 12/24V capable. You can use a single 12V charger but you need to charge both batteries separately which is a pain the behind. Be aware that many two-bank chargers don't have this capability as they have common grounds and won't work on a 12/24 system unless a switch panel like yours is used. Just buy a good on-board charger and forget the nonsense of the switch panel. Plug in at the dock in the evening and both batteries will be up to snuff in the morning. If you need more help just give a shout.

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Upinsmoke...<br />I'm quite confident that the boat is wired the way you recommend in your previous post.<br />Would you please take a minute to check the following (and give it your blessing)... <br /><br />The wires are not connected to the socket pins, but to trolling motor foot pedal wires.<br /><br />Trolling motor battery 1 red positive connects to a trolling motor foot pedal white wire. <br /><br />Trolling motor battery 2 red positive connects to a blue connector that has an orange and a red wire leaving from the connector. The red connects to nothing and the orange connects to the trolling motor foot pedal red wire.<br /><br />Trolling motor battery 1 negative connects to the trolling motor foot pedal black. <br /><br />Trolling motor battery 2 neg connects to nothing. <br /><br />Where the connections from the battery wires to the foot pedal wires are made the battery wires are labeled for trolling motor battery 1 and 2 but I don't know which battery is 1 and which is 2 because the orange wire doesn't run from the battery to the front of the boat. Both wires from the batteries are red ones and the only orange is spliced in at the front of the boat to a wire labeled as trolling motor battery 2 (and this is the orange wire connected to the trolling motor foot pedal red wire). <br /><br />Since the motor only spins in the the 12v setting when one of the two batteries is connected is it safe to say that that battery that makes the motor spin is #1 and the other battery which is "orange"(red to orange) and an unconnected black is battery #2??? <br /><br />As the boat sits now the jumper is connected to the negative post of the battery that will cause the motor to spin if it is the only battery with its' positive and negative connected. And this would be battery #1 (the battery with the red to trolling motor white and black to trolling motor black described above) <br /><br />If this is all aok then I would leave the jumper on the negative post of battery 1 and connect the other end to positive post of battery 2 (the battery that does nothing if it is the only battery with its' postitive red and negative black connected) and this would allow me to use both battery 1 and 2 if I switch the trolling motor to 24 volt setting. <br /><br />The fish finder is wired to the back of the courtesy light toggle switch on the instrument panel. If I hook up both batteries so I am pushing 24 volts to the trolling motor that is awesome. Will the fish finder be hooked up to the 24 volt power? Or will the fish finder and the couresy light and all the other boat accessories be hooked up to 12volt power from the cranking battery??? Or does the trolling motor 12v24v switch somehow ensure that the only item that can get 24v power is the trollling motor? Sorry for all the questions but I really appreciate the help.<br /><br />Thanks in advance<br />Bigwave

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Sounds like the previous owner had some red wire and used it for everything. At this point I need more info again -- sorry. Tell me what wires and their colors (and only those wires) that come from your trolling motor foot controller. There should only be three. Don't tell me about the spices -- I just need to know colors as they leave the foot controller. You also mention a blue connector! Where is this connector located? I will cover how to wire accessories from just one of the trolling motor batteries AFTER we get the motor sorted out.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Originally posted by Upinsmoke:<br /> Sounds like the previous owner had some red wire and used it for everything. At this point I need more info again -- sorry. Tell me what wires and their colors (and only those wires) that come from your trolling motor foot controller. There should only be three. Don't tell me about the spices -- I just need to know colors as they leave the foot controller. You also mention a blue connector! Where is this connector located? I will cover how to wire accessories from just one of the trolling motor batteries AFTER we get the motor sorted out.

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1. Trolling motor white connects to a battery red.<br />2. Trolling motor red connects to a battery red/orange.<br />3. Trolling motor black connects to a battery black.<br /><br />The last black battery wire doesn't connect to anything. <br /><br />As far as the blue connector(s)...<br />It just splices wires togther (a red battery wire to an orange wire and the orange wire is connected to the foot pedal's red wire)so don't pay any attention to it. There is actually a blue connector on the end of each of the four battery wires where they arrive at the bow of the boat. One wire leaves one of the blue connectors and 2 wires leave the other 3 connectors. A battery black runs to a blue connector and one black leaves the connector and is not connected to anything. The other black battery wire runs to a blue connector and 2 black wires leave the connector. One connects to nothing and the other connects to the black foot pedal wire. A red battery wire runs to a blue connector and 2 red wires leave the connector. One connects to nothing and the other connects to the white foot pedal wire. The final red battery wire runs to a blue connector and a red and an orange leave the connector. The red connects to nothing and the orange connects to the red foot pedal wire.<br /><br />Long answer to your question. Sorry about that.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

There are a number of ways to fix this situation. 1) Save the wiring you have and never have a reliable system, or 2) fix it properly.<br /><br />1) Since the switch panel is defective, we will bypass the trolling motor features since they are not needed anyway.<br />2) Disconnect all wires connected to the POS terminals on both batteries.<br />3) Label one battery BAT #1 and the other BAT #2. At this point it doesn't matter which one is which.<br />4) Connect the short jumper wire between BAT #1 NEG and BAT #2 POS.<br />5)Now -- I have to assume (and you know what that means) that the red wire from the trolling motor foot controller is the 24V feed. That wire connects to BAT #1 POS. Use a circuit breaker or fuse at the battery. Do yourself a favor and make sure the wire spliced to the red trolling motor wire is red all the way to the battery. Then label it +24V. Replace the wire with a red one if necessary.<br />6) Now the tough part. White and Black are both used to designate ground. Obviously one or the other is the 12V feed. Since the motor runs without the black wire connected, I will assume the white wire from the trolling motor is ground. Therefore, connect it to BAT #2 NEG. Again, make sure you run a white wire all the way to the battery. Change it if you must. Then label it GROUND.<br />7) That leaves the black wire which is the 12V feed. Connect it to BAT #2 POS. Again, make sure the wire is black all the way. Replace it if you must and install circuit breaker or fuse at the battery. <br /><br />To run accessories from the trolling motor battery (note I said battery) run the negative feed from the accessory to the negative terminal of BAT #2. Run the hot +12V lead to BAT #2 POS. Use a fuse. Your accessories with therefore run off BAT #2 always. 24V won't be an issue.<br />8) You must charge the batteries separately using a 12V charger. Or buy a 12/24 capable on-board charger. Good luck -- it should run.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Bigwave it is not necessary to put quotes on everything everybody says. Just respond to what people are writing. It makes the thread smaller and easier to read.<br /><br />Hey upinsmoke. Six more posts till you are a commander. If I dont see it happen congratulations. Most of your posts come from helping people and I commend you.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Rewired reconnected it like you recommened. All works great and nothing went up in smoke. Thanks for the help. <br />Bigwave

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Thanks Eurolarva -- I was asked once how I expected to be taken seriously on electrical issues when using the name "Upinsmoke". I could have used the name "Noblownfuses" but that would be a lie. Anyone who has worked with electronics and electrics and not made sparks is either lucky or a liar. This gets even tougher when you can't see your work. Have a great day.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

I believe I may have voiced that about your iboats name in an earlier post in the chrysler section. I was an electrical technician for Honeywell for 7 years and know what you mean. Electricity scares the crap out of me. Havent made too many sparks fly. I typically absorb them in my body.

Re: 3 simple electrical questions

Where do you hang your hat in Minnesota?