Battery Switch dilema.....

Boat of Us

Seaman
Joined
Mar 5, 2003
Messages
52
Hello<br /><br />This Battery Switch question seems to be very popular, but it is abit confusing.<br />I have two battery's, 1 starting and 1 deep cycle.<br />Once I started my engine(outboard) can I turn my switch to both? My switch has a AFD. <br />Some say yes & some say no. If I can not, then what is the purpose of having a switch? Since I don't have shore power,which means I can not charge the battery's, I must rely on my engine's alternator.<br />I put on the cabin light and played all the positions on the switch.The light never flickered.<br /><br />Thanks and hopefully I'll get a clearer picture of understanding the FAMOUS BATTERY SELECTOR SWITCH..........
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

Moving to Electrics
 

Boatin Bob

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
1,858
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

Most newer battery switches are the "make before break" type so that you can switch to different positions (BUT NEVER TO OFF) without hurting the alternator. Sounds like you have already done your own test to prove it to yourself so go ahead. When you get to where you are going if you are going to be on the hook for a while just switch it to your deep cycle for whatever accessory you are running and then when it's time to go you switch it to your starting battery and you should be good to go.
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

Here is the deal. There are basically two ways you can wire up the power system of a small, single engined dual-battery boat. The first, and maybe the most common (but certainly not the most desirable) is to use a typical automotive type "Starting" battery to get your engine running and then a "House" battery to run all of your electrical loads off of. The second (and far better for most boats) system has it wired with two identical batterys, usually hybird combined cycle starting/deep cycle, either of which can, and will, be used for the boat's entire electrical load.<br /><br />Now, as to the switch, its positons, and what you might want to be thining about when you use it, because you can use it any way you want, its just that some ways make more sense than others. The switch has two input lugs on its back and one output lug. The switch has 4 positions; Off, Battery 1, Battery 2, and Both. If its off you should not be getting power to anything on the boat (with just two exceptions, the float switche(s) for your bilge pump(s) and the memory for you music system and Flowscan, if you have them). If your boat is wired somehow that anything at all other than the bilge pump(s) come on when the switch is in the Off position you may safely assume your boat was wired by a moron and that you can't trust any of it.<br /><br />OK, each battery is connected to the switch independently by its own battery cable. If you have the switch set in Battery 1 postion the second battery is not conected in any way. If you have it in Battery 2 the same is true for the other battery. In the both position you are drawing from, and chargin to, both of the batterys at the same time and in exactly the same amount. By that I mean that if you are using more power than the engine is making it will come from both batterys equally and if your engine is making more power than it needs some of that may be used to charge both batterys - equally. That is in the Both position. Now here are the two basic problems there. The first and greatest probme is that by using the both positon you are absoltuly guaranteeing that one battery is gong to be over charged and one undercharged and the second thing is that if you are out on the water and the charging systmem fails your chances of being stranded are infinitly greater if you have the battery switch set in the both position. The simple reason is that if you have it in the both positon when out there running you will kill both batterys at the same time. So you run it, which requires almost no power, and then you stop to fish, sunbathe, or just take a leak, and when you go to restart the engine all you get is a click. Welcome to the world of running on both. Then there is the charging problem.<br /><br />Let's say you have a typical small starting battery, about what you'd find in a mid-sized SUV or plain or car. Its probably about a Group 26 or so and it probably has about 70 amp hour capacity with some fairly high cranking amps. Sitting beside it is probably a Group 27 battery of some type that is being used for a house battery, with its amp hour capacity of somewhere around 90~100. OK, here is a quick primer for you, the voltage of a battery is a function of its state of charge, so as you use up stored amps, as when running at idle speed or so with electronics turned on (most engine's alternators put out very little power at idle, although they all put out their maximum power by the time you hit somewhere aroud 1,500 RPM or so). The alternator's regulating scheme will adjust the output to match what it sees in the batterys, the lower the batterys the more of its available power it will send back into the cable. If you are running in the both position what is there for the engine to sense is the average voltage from both of the batterys. That means that as soon as you start your engine, using the "starting" battery that is is somewhat discharged. So you flip to the both positions and what you find is that the average voltage is decreased even though the house battery is still fully charged - so its gonna get charged some more, which is over charging, and the starting battery, which you no longer are using, is getting a nice slow charge. The starting battery recharges pretty quickly and all settles down to a nice even charge while you are running, but then you start fishing. Electroncis are running and the batterys are now being discharged, but not equally. While the power being drawn is comming from each battery equally the batterys themselves are not equal, with the starting battery being what you could think of as smaller (in capacity). Proportionatly the smaller starting battery is being discharged more than the house battery so t he decline in the average voltage in the boat is mostly attributable to it So when your chrank the engine back up it now, once again, run the engine up to speed and you over charge the house battery while undercharging the starting battery and at a rate that overcharges the house battery. This significantly decreases the life of the batterys, both of them.<br /><br />Keep this one thing in mind, you can do anything with a deep cycle battery you can do with a starting battery, but not the other way around.<br /><br />So what makes the most sense for most day boats with a single engine is two batterys of equal size and type wired such that each of them is capable of starting and running the boats entire systems. It is a very simple system and it relys on the use of just one battery at a time, holding the other completely in reserve. You pick which battery you are going to use in the morning and stick with it. If something happens to it you flip to the other one and go home and fix the problem. One battery at a time, either Battery 1 or Battery 2, but never both.<br /><br />By the way, I use a fool-proof systme for getting precisely the same use and charge out of each battery. When I go out in the boat I guess what the date is, it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. If its an even number day of the month I use battery 2, if its an odd number day I use Battery 1. If I get it wrong it all averages out over the 4 years or so I get out of my batterys.<br /><br />Thom
 

Capn Mike

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 10, 2001
Messages
561
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

Thanks very much Thom...my manual (Seaswirl) says I can run in "Both," but recommends against it. Now I see why....maybe.<br />Let's say that we run in "both:" you're saying that one battery will be overcharged while the other (needs charging) is being charged (did I get that right?). But I've always heard that when the two are combined (assuming two equal capacity batteries ), the charged battery also sends current to the undercharged battery until both are the same. At that point, wouldn't they both be charged (assuming the alternator is up to the task) until both are fully charged?<br />I'm not going to try it...I've always done the even day, even battery thing too.
 

SingleShot

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
113
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

If both batteries are connected as in "both" in time the batterys will equalize in charge. This is based on internal resistance and some other goodies. You are correct about not running in both as if you have one battery with a bad cell it will drain the other and put undue load on the charging system. Thom's last suggestion is what I use, 2 batteries of which I run 1 until I get home or have problems then run the other. One other item is to replace your altenator with dual outputs, or possibly useing your current altenator and adding a second voltage regulator. Selecting the output of the second regulator is critical as you dont want to over load the capacity of the altenator itself. You may actualy be abl to find a dual output regulator to replace the stock one.<br /><br />JK
 

rwidman

Lieutenant
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
1,396
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

You can put the switch in the "both" position after you start the engine to charge both batteries. Switch to #2" for anchoring and #1 for starting (or vice versa).<br /><br />or<br /><br />Install a "combiner" http://yandina.com/NewCatalog.htm <br /><br />and rewire the boat so that one battery is reserved for starting and the other for "house loads".
 

2MADAKAT

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 13, 2004
Messages
143
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

What about the use of electric trolling motors though. Does a boat motor generate enough power to charge a deep cycle battery while just driving?
 

ThomWV

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Dec 19, 2003
Messages
701
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

Most large outboards have alternators that put out at least 25 amps per hour, far more than is needed to charge a Group 27 or larger battery, easily enough to charge a pair of batterys or a deep cycle used for a trolling motor. Its just a matter of having enough time, and that is a problem for some guys.<br /><br />Here's something for you. You normally don't see trolling motors used on boats that have long runs to their fishing grounds. They, trolling motors, are more often found on small boats operating on small bodys of water. That presents a problem in that although the main outboard will put out plenty of electricity it simply doesn't run long enough to charge the batterys. How many of you all actually run the big engine for an hour on the way out to drop your first line of the day? Here's my observation, not many. <br /><br />So let's say you have a 100 amp hour deep cycle battery to power your trolling motor. As a general rule of thumb you should be able to charge your battery at a rate that is roughly equal to 10% of its capacity, so for your 100 amp hour battery it is probably about right to charge it at 10 amps per hour. Your alternator puts out at least 25 so you're good. So you go out and fish and you run down the trolling motor battery to about 50% of its capacity. Then your fire up the big engine to run back to the dock. You drive it at a some high speed for a half hour going home and in that the alternator, who's rate of output is plenty high engouh to charge the battery, only puts out 12.5 amps in total, because it only ran for a half our bit you are sitting on top of a battery that is 50 amps low. See the problem? Your big engine is burning 12 gallons an hour of $2 gas when its cranking at 4,200 RPM and so it would cost more in gas to drive the boat around for an additional 45 minutes than it would to take the battery to a service station and have it charged. Now you see why so many guys invest the hundred bucks in an on-board battery charger? Its not that the outboard wouldn't do it, its that there is no time to charge them using the main engine.<br /><br />Thom
 

2MADAKAT

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 13, 2004
Messages
143
Re: Battery Switch dilema.....

That's kind of what I figured Thom. I might use<br />my electric four to five hours, actual run time,<br />a day, but on the lakes I am running it on, I am<br />usually no more than a 20 minute run from camp with the main motor. <br />Right now, I just take the battery up to the cabin with me every night to charge. (P.I.T.A.)<br />This thread helped me to decide not to bother putting a switch in the boat I am working on.<br />Thanks for the info.
 
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