Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9
Hello, and thanks for viewing. I just had a local shop install a new starter in my '78 Tiara 2500 with Mercruiser 260. I had already removed the starboard manifold so I could access and verify that the solenoid was okay (which it was). So basically all they had to do was remove the old starter (a permanent magnet Arco 30470), verify that it was in fact toast, and install new one and re-install the manifold. They just called me and the bill is around $610 or something like that. I was/am shocked, and the guy on the phone told me the new starter was around $209 or something (not surprised, since these go for around $150 or so if you shop around online), a new manifold gasket was $9, and then tax was $13 & change. He said shop labor is $90/hr (again, not surprised), so it looks like they're trying to charge me at least 4 hours of labor. Sounds ridiculous to me. . . . what do you guys think? And NO, they did NOT have to remove the engine.

The only other thing I asked them to please do is look at my installation of a new Pertronix breakerless ignition and Flamethrower coil to verify it is wired correctly. Two wires from Pertronix module -- red one going to positive coil terminal and black one going to negative. . . that simple! My only question was whether the red wire needed to go to the ballast resistor or straight to the positive terminal on the coil, as I had opted to wire it. He told me "Yes, you had it wired correctly."

I plan to go pick up the boat after work today or tomorrow. Just wanted to see what you guys & gals think, and if I should really call them to the carpet over this bill or not before I pay it. I wasn't getting confrontational over the phone, but just asking for a little explanation, and the guy (I assume the owner or manager; definitely not the technician) was already getting a short and defensive tone.

Thank you in advance for your $0.02
 

Fleetwin

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
1,141
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Yes, reasonable.

The kicker is your installation of the Petronix. They had no idea if you did it right or wrong. Plus, they have to guarentee their work, you don't.
 
Last edited:

djmakko

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
134
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

didn't you get an estimate before agreeing to service ? if you have already taken the manifold out which IMO is the most difficult thing to do , starter only has 2 screws !!, outrageous bill!!
 

GA_Boater

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
May 24, 2011
Messages
49,038
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Probably flat rate charges. You have a choice - Pay the bill or leave the boat. Doubt if you can do much about it. Why didn't you R/R the starter since you were right there?
 

Mischief Managed

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 6, 2005
Messages
1,928
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

4 hours for that amount of work seems ridiculous, but they may have had trouble getting the starter shimmed correctly. That can be a little time consuming. Did they have to do any research to verify your installation of the ignition and coil? That could account for some time too.
 

GA_Boater

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
May 24, 2011
Messages
49,038
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Did they put the manifold back on, since you mentioned a gasket charge? And fire up the motor to verify their work? You really have to see the bill for all the charges.
 

hivoltg

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
186
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I think my wife would punch me in the potato if I came home with that repair bill. :behindsofa:
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Thanks for all of the replies so far. Yes, they did re-install the stbd manifold. The old gasket was not all stuck on and needing to be scraped off, as the engine has less than 50 hours on it. No, they did not provide me an estimate prior to doing the service -- hope I didn't screw myself by not insisting on one. Not sure if they had to do any research about the Pertronix installation, but I gave them the instructions and they also had the points, condenser and old Mercury coil that I had just removed and replaced with these. As you all probably already know, the Pertronix is a pretty common and very simple to install upgrade to my Mallory distributor. Took me maybe 10-15 minutes to do, and all I wanted them to do is take a look at it before firing the boat up (since ironically, the starter crapped out on me the first time I tried to start it up after putting the Pertronix in!).
 

Volphin

Lieutenant
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
1,405
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I'll tell you one thing... that wrench was sure glad to see that manifold off the engine. That is the hardest part and you did half of it for him. So he earned the std book rate for the entire job without all the labor. Hmmm. I'd love jobs like that. The entire job probably took him 1 actual hour, and he earned 4. That's how it works.
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I sure wouldn't say they earned 4! I had that manifold off about a half an hour, and that's because I've never done it and had a hard time getting a few of the hoses to come off once I loosened their clamps. Even if he would have had to remove the manifold himself, do you really think "standard" labor for this job is 4 hours?! I would have thought 2 or less. I really feel like they're trying to screw me, which is why I almost always try to be my own "wrench." My wife and a few of my friends think I'm just being cheap, but I like knowing how stuff works, and better yet, not being completely at the mercy of shops that sometimes take advantage.
 

81 Checkmate

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 20, 2010
Messages
1,360
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

" I really feel like they're trying to screw me, which is why I almost always try to be my own "wrench." My wife and a few of my friends think I'm just being cheap, but I like knowing how stuff works, and better yet, not being completely at the mercy of shops that sometimes take advantage "


Then why didnt you finish the job yourself? Not much to unbolt a starter! Proly could of had the old one rebuilt and reinstalled for $200.00 bucks.

So now you are at the mercy of a shop and have to pay the piper!

Sorry Just Saying!
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

GA Boater and 81 Checkmate --

I'm kicking myself now in hindsight, that's for sure! I decided not to mess around with trying to order a starter online, waiting for a week or so to get it while all the while hoping I ordered the right one. Plus, it still didn't look like it was going to be all that easy for me to reach so I figured I'd just pay a local shop a couple hundred bucks (max) labor and spend my precious little free time working on a few of the thousand other projects I've got (you know how it is!).

I understand shops have overhead and have to make a profit, but come on, assuming (haven't seen the itemized bill yet, but the guy sure didn't convince me over the phone) they are charging 2-3 hours more than what the job actually took, this just seems flat out unethical. I hope that they can either convince me that their labor charges are warranted or they make a reasonable adjustment. I'm not optimistic, but am going to give them a chance. I'll let you all know how it turns out. Thanks again for your responses.
 

Volphin

Lieutenant
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
1,405
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I sure wouldn't say they earned 4! I had that manifold off about a half an hour, and that's because I've never done it and had a hard time getting a few of the hoses to come off once I loosened their clamps. Even if he would have had to remove the manifold himself, do you really think "standard" labor for this job is 4 hours?! I would have thought 2 or less. I really feel like they're trying to screw me, which is why I almost always try to be my own "wrench." My wife and a few of my friends think I'm just being cheap, but I like knowing how stuff works, and better yet, not being completely at the mercy of shops that sometimes take advantage.

I have actually worked as a certified mechanic. Here's how the equation works. You need a tune up. The labor book calls for 2 hours to be charged for this tune up. I get it done in 30 minutes due to my skill, experience, and sweat. Not to mention my tools & special tools & education, for which I spent a great deal of money. I earn the full 2 hours of pay (I don't get the full $90 per hr, but a percentage of that as the tech).

The next tune up comes in. The shop charges the same 2 hours according to the flat rate manual. This time, a customer has cross threaded a spark plug or some other unforeseen problem happens. Maybe my air tool dies... whatever. It takes me 3 hours to do that tune up. I only get paid for 2 hours. The max I can make is 2 hours. But if I do it faster, I am issued another job where I can make more hours. Get it?

Without looking at the flat rate book, I have no idea if you overpaid. Some shops charge an hour of diagnostic time for some issues then report the findings and figure out how you want to proceed.

The bottom line is: Ask up front. It's your boat and you have asked someone very skilled to fix what you cannot.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I'm with Volphin here. That's how it's done these days. When I had a shop (in the 90s) it was done by the actual time taken, not a flat rate book...

Also, let me tell you, some of those starters can be VERY difficult to get out. If the screws are dry and tight, getting enough torque on a spanner to break them out in a tight engine bay, when the spanner is under the engine oil pan... That is a tough ask! You said a 1978 engine.... Those screws haven't moved for 35 years.... (which, BTW, is why you took it to the shop ;))

I think you got off lightly...

But next time, get a quote.. :facepalm:

Chris.....
 
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
9
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

I hear what you're saying, Chris, but this motor hasn't been in there for 35 years. In fact, it is a rebuild that was put in 4 years ago, and I believe the starter (an Arco 30470 permanent magnet) was new at that time. Regardless, you're right, I definitely should have gotten a quote and told them to call me if they ran into something that was going to cause it to exceed that (I wrench on stuff all the time, so I know how that goes!).
 

theblob

Banned
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
181
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

You did good getting out of there for under a 1,000.usualy take a boat in for a 300 fix and about 5 things bad and end up having to spend 1-2000.and you dont know if they messed it up or if it was like that before.there are some shady mechanic shops.and there parts prices are just what parts should sell for not what they pay.some places get 30% off if they buy alot.really dont want to take outboard to shop they will suggest lots of stuff that needs done even if it will last a few years.
 

theblob

Banned
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
181
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

And another thing that you can do make sure there atleast giving you a good warrenty at no charge.
 

Grub54891

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
5,908
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Just replaced 2 starters the other day at our shop. One took 3 1/2 hours,had to remove back panel,and slide the starter out from under the motor to the front. Then clean up the oil film in the bilge so I could slide the new one back without getting it all slimed up so I could pick it up,contort my hands to get the bolts in,get it set,hookup,test run,re-assemble panel,and junk attached to panel. Pick up tools,wipe down work area, put cover on,vacume up carpet even though it was messy before I started, pull from shop and park outside.
The next one was done in one hour. Same motor,different accebility. Theres always a different scenario in place no matter what ya do someone isnt going to be happy. I just do the work as best I can,and want you to be safe in the water. My 2Cents...
Grub
 

Volphin

Lieutenant
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
1,405
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Just replaced 2 starters the other day at our shop. One took 3 1/2 hours,had to remove back panel,and slide the starter out from under the motor to the front. Then clean up the oil film in the bilge so I could slide the new one back without getting it all slimed up so I could pick it up,contort my hands to get the bolts in,get it set,hookup,test run,re-assemble panel,and junk attached to panel. Pick up tools,wipe down work area, put cover on,vacume up carpet even though it was messy before I started, pull from shop and park outside.
The next one was done in one hour. Same motor,different accebility. Theres always a different scenario in place no matter what ya do someone isnt going to be happy. I just do the work as best I can,and want you to be safe in the water. My 2Cents...
Grub

Thanks for posting this grub. Not everyone understands the situation and you explained it perfectly. :)
 

geneseo1911

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 3, 2011
Messages
183
Re: Poll -- Is this unreasonable labor for R&R starter?

Suddenly I feel very silly for replacing my buddy's starter for free!
 
Top