1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Hi everyone! I hope this gets to Joe Reeves, if someone could pass this along, as he is the electric shift expert!

Quick Summary:
I bought a 1988 Larson 15' with a 1970 Johnson 60 hp, electric shift. Model 60ESL70B. Fixed the boat up, motor ran, and life was good. Had the usual lower end issues with it not shifting into N or R. drained the oil, milky. Didnt have a fast leak in the lower unit, so I would change the oil about twice a summer, and had no problems. Would shift, drive, and have fun with it.

Well, this past spring/summer i dropped the lower end and bought the lower end seal kit from iboats, to remedy the leaking issue. Also a new impeller. I used the parts diagram to figure out what was what. Put all new seals on, pressure tested the lower unit, and all is happy!

Put the lower unit back on last night, filled with oil, fresh gas and fired it up. Started perfectly. In Neutral on the start and prop not spinning = Good. Put it in forward, prop starts spinning in the forward direction = Good. Put it into reverse and no prop spin = Bad :grumpy:

I have checked the leads on the powerhead side for voltage. Forward no voltage on the green or blue leads = Good. In Neutral, 12 volts to the green and no volts to the blue = Good. In Reverse 12 volts to both the leads blue and green = Good. So I started to think I have a bad solenoid. But it ran perfect at the end of last season. So I checked the ohms on the solenoid leads. I had 5.8 ohms on green and 6.1 ohms on the blue lead. That leads me to believe the solenoids are good.

The only thing I can think of is that when putting the solenoids back into the lower unit after resealing, i am some how hampering the movement of one of the solenoids.?.

Which solenoid is moved for the reverse to work? upper or lower? They are on a rod system, not the spring system. How much is each solenoid supposed to move? the upper solenoid was pretty close to the top of the lower unit cover, and just below the wavy washer. Does this solenoid travel? Or just the lower one. I plan to drain the lower unit tonight and pull it off again. I just want to make sure that I put it back together correctly. I do have the parts diagram available in paper form from this website.

Any advice would be great!

Thanks Pros! i would be on the beach watching if ti wasn't for you guys!

Jonny Neal
-Big Tuna

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

If you state which lower unit gearlube you used, I've overlooked it.

If you installed HiVis 80/90 gearlube that is used on all of the mechanical shift units, therein probably lies your problem.

That gearcase shift setup (Hydro Electric) demands Premium Blend, also known as Type C.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Hi Joe,

I have used the premium blend "Type C" lube. Bought a case of it from west marine. So I know the lube is right. Thinking it is a mechanical problem or the wires in the solenoid area are blocking them from moving properly. You kind of have to stuff them in the lower unit cavity in that area.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

I've rebuild two or three of those units... never encountered that problem (solenoid stuffing).

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Hmm.. I didn't open her up last night as the wife had other plans for me.

But before I do, what kind of movement am I looking for in the solenoids? Does the upper solenoid move? Lower move? Which one is connected to the reverse lead? How much movement should there be?

Thanks.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

There is no movement pertaining to the solenoids and a wave washer is installed on top of the upper solenoid to assure that. The movement is with the plungers inside of the solenoids.

The top of the plungers, when the solenoid(s) is installed in the lower unit, should be (must be) 1/64" below the top of the solenoid(s).

The neutral solenoid is the top solenoid.... reverse solenoid is the bottom solenoid.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Not Joe here, but when you checked the voltages on those blue and green leads at the powerhead, were they connected or not connected to the cable going to the solenoids? You should be checking the voltage while connected.

Back to you, Joe.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

F_R,
The solenoids were connected to the leads when checked out. Thanks though, as I could see someone easily overlooking this.

Joe,
I guess i need to study up on how these solenoids work. I thought the entire cylindrical unit moved up and down the rod that goes through the center of them. I guess I didnt realize that there are plungers inside of them. They seem like sealed units, not sure what kind of plunger I should be looking for.

I will take them apart and have a look see. Maybe take some photos and post them on here.

Thanks again for the responses guys. Keeping the faith!

Jonny 5

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

I just looked in the book to refresh my memory.... the ohm reading of the shifting coils should be between 5 to 6 ohms. It appears you're right in that area.

I know you're aware that the unit requires Type C lube. I assume the case you bought and the containers specify that and you've double checked it.

Have you tried running a jumper wire directly from the battery to both the shift wires leading to the lower unit which would eliminate or confirm a wiring voltage problem other than with the lower unit?

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Joe,

Yes I took a jumper from the hot lead on the starter to each of the leads on the lower unit, and came up with the same results. Thus, letting me know that the problem is in the lower end. Seems I created one problem by fixing the other (sealing the lower unit).

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Big_Tuna said:

Yes I took a jumper from the hot lead on the starter to each of the leads on the lower unit, and came up with the same results. Thus, letting me know that the problem is in the lower end. Seems I created one problem by fixing the other (sealing the lower unit).

Click to expand...

It may be just the way I read the above but worth clarifying... the jumper would need to be attached to both of the lower unit leads to obtain reverse, with the leads disconnected from the engine's wiring harness, and with the engine running. This was your method?

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Joe,

Yes, I had the knife splices disconnected. I then took a jumper from the hot on the starter to the green lead going down to the lower unit, then I took another jumper and went from the hot on the starter to the blue lead going down to the lower unit. With voltage going to both of the leads I should have seen reverse on the prop. However, it showed Neutral. No spinning of the prop.

The control box was in Neutral, but that shouldnt matter considering I had the splices disconnected.

Also I can triple verify that the correct oil is in the lower unit. I had to run across town t find the stuff a couple years ago.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Big_Tuna said:

Joe, Yes, I had the knife splices disconnected. I then took a jumper from the hot on the starter to the green lead going down to the lower unit, then I took another jumper and went from the hot on the starter to the blue lead going down to the lower unit. With voltage going to both of the leads I should have seen reverse on the prop. However, it showed Neutral. No spinning of the prop. The control box was in Neutral, but that shouldnt matter considering I had the splices disconnected. Also I can triple verify that the correct oil is in the lower unit. I had to run across town t find the stuff a couple years ago.

Click to expand...

It's really good to have a member spell it out so to speak so as to avoid any lack of communication. Many times (for instance) we might ask about the compression reading and/or the spark jumping a 7/16" gap with a strong wide blue spark, and get in reply something like "Ya, the spark is fine, compression is okay" which tells us nothing really.

In your case, it looks like the reverse problem is truly within the lower unit. However, it's strange that the ohm resistance reading of the reverse coil is as it should be UNLESS the majority of the wiring to that coil is broken away (voltage drop). Undoubtedly you'll be digging into it shortly... let us know what you find.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

OK guys,
I dropped the lower end last night. Drained the Type C "premium blend" lube, no milky oil. unbolted the solenoid cover and pulled it upwards. The Blue and green wires came out with no cuts or breaks in the line. The Solenoids take a little bit of wiggle to get out, but come out. I cleaned them out, moving the plungers up and down making sure there was nothing sticking. I applied the ohm meter to each solenoid lead (as seen in the pics) and both came out good. Notice that my solenoids are on a "stick", and this stick does not have the springs on the lower end of the solenoids. However, I was given another lower end for my motor for parts when i purchased the boat, and I opened up the solenoid case in that unit, and it has the spring below the solenoids (see in picture). i checked the ohms on these solenoids, and they too were around 6 ohms consistently.

after cleaning everything off, i put the original solenoids back into my lower end. Lower solenoid bottoms out, then the plactic washer, upper solenoid and upper wave washer. tuck the wires in the front of the lower end and close up the cover, which has a new gasket. I will test the motor today when i get home, as I finished putting the lower unit back in around 10 pm last night, and I dont think the neighbors want to hear the loud "WRAP" from my motor on muffs.

If you see anything wrong in the photos or in my process, please let me know. Couple of questions: 1. are the solenoid units swapable between lower units? Can i put the spring loaded solenoids in the lower unit that I have? 2. Looking at the photos, the spring loaded solenoids in the extra lower unit I have, the blue lead solenoid is above the green solenoid. In my unit the green was on top of the blue. Maybe this extra unit was put together incorrectly? What is the correct location for each solenoid?

Hope this helps. i will report my findings after tonight's test. BTW, getting the leads back up through the exhaust cover is a pain in my *****!

-Jonny Neal
Pics to follow.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Rest of the photos:


-Jonny 5

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Can't help with your shift problem but from now on, tie a strong string to the two shift wires going into the lower unit. As the wires drop out the string follows. When it's time reassemble, pull the string and the wires follow back from where they came.
You can test each solenoids operation out of the lower unit, apply 12v to each one seperately, the plunger should move, they don't move far but you should see it. No, they won't fly apart this way.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Years back is was common to lose reverse due to inadequate oil pressure from debris covering the oil pump screen which limited the amount of oil feeding the gyrotor pump. You have to take the gearcase apart and remove the tapered snap ring, the pump and the round screen.

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

The first two 3cyl hydro electric shift units (1968/69 55hp) had the solenoid setup with the springy thing on the bottom. The higher hp models has the solid steel shaft leading down to the oil pump. Starting 1970 thru 1972 they all had the solid shaft.

Although the two solenoids look identical, they have different part numbers for some reason.

The top solenoid is the neutral solenoid (green wire).

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Okay guys,

Time to report back. After cleaning all the parts again (not dirty or really needed) I reassembled the lower unit, put it back together the same way as before. No changes, as i couldn't find anything that looked suspicious.

wheeled the boat out into the driveway, put the muffs on it and fired it up in Neutral. Went to forward and worked great, went back to Neutral and prop stopped spinning. Went to go into reverse..... and...... wait for it..... The prop went into reverse!

Not sure what happened, but taking it apart and putting it back together seemed to have done the trick. There must have been a snag or something on the lower solenoid.

I want to thank all of you, especially Joe Reeves for guiding me and keeping me on task. Boat gets wet this weekend!

Jonny 5

Re: 1970 Hydroelectric shift. NO reverse, proper voltage.

Must have been a slight bit of something interfering with the solenoids.

We knew you could do it.