1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

I am looking for input to help decide what repairs might be worth doing on my boat. I've read enough to know that you can't gauge things without checking it out in person, so I'm really just looking for ball park estimates and folks' gutt feel based on their experiences, some pics of my boat and a description of my situation. I need to find a professional to do the work for me (either in Toronto or near Montreal) since unfortunately I don't have the tools, shop or time to do it myself. Here it goes...

I bought this old boat last summer after realizing it was almost same price as renting one for my vacation - it planes and rides great (42mhp?), original 120 HP Johnson outboard runs fine, seats are perfect, EZload trailer in decent shape, single owner with all maintenance receipts, cost me $3k all in. It had a couple of soft spots on the floor, and some cracks on the transom and near the trim (see pics). There didn't seem to be any movement in the transom when applying (upward) pressure on the engine, so I filled in the cracks with silicone just as a stop gap measure before I put in the water for vacation, knowing I was going to have to do invest in the transom and floor at some point. We had a great vacation, skiing, tubing, etc. (I really only use it for 2 weeks/yr).

The cracks seem to have gotten a little bigger, according to the guy I stored it with (he took pics), he says probably from expansion from freezing water inside over the winter. Btw, his main business is boat storage, but he has a shop and does mechanical work and a friend that does body work. His first reaction was to fix the transom by applying some fiberglass over the transom and adding a steel plate - a kind of bandaid fix, which he ballparked at costing maybe $1,500. I asked whether it was worth spending this kind of money on this boat, how long it would last, whether it wouldn't make more sense to just do the whole transom instead of just bandaid, etc. After getting frustrated with all the questions (he always complains he's so busy!), we agreed to get someone to survey the boat to see what is going on to help decide what to do. When I called him a week later to check, he claimed the surveyor happened to come that morning and told him it was "not worth surveying" - I'm not really sure what he meant and whether the surveyor even really looked at the boat, but he seemed to imply the transom was too far gone. I am now awaiting for his "body" guy to have a look and provide an estimate(s). As you can tell, I don't have high confidence in what I'm being told, so I'm reaching out to you good folks for advice!

I actually really like this boat, and am thinking given the relatively low $ in so far, it's better to invest in fixing transom and floor and know it'll last a long time, rather than going through the hassle of selling it and taking the risk (again) in buying another old boat.

Looking for which of the following you'd pick and estimate of cost:

1) Sell boat and buy another one - if so, what is minimum to spend to get peace of mind?
2) Fix transom to buy a few more yrs (i.e. not replace)? (idea being to spend as little as possible to get few more yrs esp since I don't use boat much)
3) Fix/replace transom as required only? ($1,500 reasonable?)
4) Fix/replace transom as required and floor at same time (and stringers if need be, although they might be okay as floor feels solid except two spots and Doral apparently wrapped stringers in glass) ($2700-3500 for everything reasonable?)
5) anyone you know either in Toronto or eastern townships/Montreal area that does decent work cheap (I don't need/want to pay for best work)?
6) other advice, ideas, estimates?

Thank you so much for your patience and advice!
Roger

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

jbcurt00 said:

To core sample your transom use a 1/4-3/8" drill bit & some masking tape to make a depth gauge @ 1 1/4" up the drill bit:

Drill 8 +/- holes in various places from side to side & top to bottom, at least 1 just below the thru bolts for the outboard. You want to have dry/light colored shavings for every hole. Any dark or wet shavings indicate that the transom may have water intrusion.

Post all the pix you can

Click to expand...

I'm afraid you may not like the answers you're likely to get. Post pix of the entire boat, the interior of the boat & a shot up under the splashwell of the transom's interior.

The soft spots on the deck and a widening crack on the transom likely mean you need to replace the transom. No small job on an OB runabout.

Read thru some of the resto threads, you can fix this boat.

$3K was probably too much upfront, & is money spent so it isn't figured in the following, but now that you're here, a little math:

Take this boat out of service for the season, and do an entire gut & resto. If the motor runs & you can salvage the steering & throttle setup, buy marine vinyl & redo the interior yourself, do the fiberglass work yourself, paint the boat (gelcoat if you are equipped). You could probably get a 17.5' open bow runabout resto done for $2-3K, maybe less, maybe more if you have to sub out the interior or go high end on finishes (gauges & etc)

You will end up w/ a significantly better boat then any other boat on the market sub $5K. You will know it's condition thru & thru having put your hands on every facet of the boat.

MANY $8-10K boats are not in much better condition then yours was when you bought it.

Friscoboater is an excellent example:
1995 Sea Ray 220 Signature Deck and Stringer Restoration

Even if you add the original $3K back to the rebuild costs, you will still end up ahead.

Is it 'worth' what you'll put into it? Can you get the money back? Probably no to both. But if you LOVE this boat & it fits your families needs, it is 'worth' what you think it's worth.

A seaworthy & safe craft is priceless (IMHO), and the only way to get 1 of those for less then the price of a comparable brand new boat that's never been in the water, is to do it yourself.

Welcome to the iboats dry dock

Here's a great place to dig in:
How To's and Other Great Information

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Thanks for the feedback jbcurt00. Attached are a couple more pics of inside of boat. As mentioned, engine runs fine and interior (seats, etc.) is in great shape. I don't have pics under splashwell. Transom is most urgent issue obviously, although given that it feels very solid when moving engine up and down, my thinking is to use it again for our 2 weeks' vacation, then get someone to fix it in the fall/winter (and probably floor too).

Hope this helps and I encourage any and all feedback - good, bad and ugly, it's all good!
Roger

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

So, a couple things. First, jbcurt00 is on the job so that's a good thing. He seems to be very helpful. As for allowing your storage guy do your work with a survey guy and his connections with a body man... that would make me very nervous. I'm not saying stop, but just be very careful that they don't scam you.

Now my main reason for responding to this. When you say "to use it again for our 2 weeks' vacation" the first thing I thought of was this thread:

http://forums.iboats.com/boat-restoration-building-hull-repair/transom-repair-605034.html

I highly recommend reading this thread. His thread started out much like yours. It was, Hey I got this boat and it's got some issues blah blah. Then one of his next comments was, Hey, I wish I would have listened because we just barely made it back to shore as my engine was dangling off the back of my boat.

Not to say this will happen to you, but be very careful. That is an engine back there with torque thrust etc and the board it's attached to is very important.

That said, I'm jealous because there is NO WAY my boat can even think about water. Which makes me wonder, why do we call it the Dry Dock, if most boats are there because they're insides are soaking wet? :tongue:

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Hi and welcome, Roger...
I completely agree with jbc...he pretty much nailed it...
If you really like this boat and it fits your needs, you can not buy another boat in better condition for two or even three or four times the price that it would cost you to restore this one...
Restoring our boats is not an easy task because it is labor intensive, but the peace of mind you'll have knowing this boat is better built than the factory ever could, after a thorough restoration, is priceless...
As far as using it for your upcoming vacation, make sure you are constantly wearing your PFD's and that all of your safety equipment is up to par...
Keep in mind that if the damage has gotten worse from just sitting in storage, it could become really bad in a big hurry when you are out blasting around, so be careful...
Check out the thread mentioned by "Raist"...
Best of luck and boat safely...
GT1M

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Thanks Raist11 and drydock comment is funny... Thanks for the reminder to read that thread, which I have (and others). Rest assured, I will be very careful and diligent before using the boat. While my description may have sounded a little like the start of others that ended in horror stories, I do think mine is safer (no sagging or movement whatsoever in transom that I can see), but I will be double checking and giving it a good once over before launching...

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

In my opinion, I wouldn't trust a word from someone who recommended adding fiberglass over a wet transom and adding metal plates.

As far as being worth it, that's gotta be decided by what its worth to you! I don't think there is ant way you could come out ahead by paying someone to do a restore. You wouldn't know the quality of work being done, and it would be very easy to hide skipped steps and poor work. I swear there isn't enough money in the world for me to restore a boat like I'm doing mine purely for profit. I can only see myself doing it because I want the boat fixed for myself and my enjoyment, or the enjoyment of someone close to me.

I can't speak for you having a place to work on it, but the tools and skills can be acquired!

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Thanks GT1M. Any guidance on what to start repairing first, or better to do it all at once? Any ideas on estimates on cost of various repairs? Thx!

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

It is definitely best to do it all at once!

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Yeah, reality is that doing it all at once is the best way to go, since doing one thing depends on tearing into the the other to get to it...
Costs can vary, like jbc mentioned, depending on how "high-end" you want to go...
A conservative budget is 2-4 thousand in parts and materials, and anywhere from 100-300 hours of labor...some guys can do it for faster, while some of us slow pokes take longer...
I have been very fortunate to have at my disposal a wholesale marine supply 15 minutes away from me, that has made it very affordable to do this, yet even with that, I already have about 1000 dollars in glassing and structure materials, alone...
I have also been buying little nick knacks {like on board battery chargers, battery switches, pop-up cleats, instruments, hardware, etc, etc...to upgrade as I go along, and all that stuff adds up, too
I also, had my engine rebuilt to the tune of about 1000, including a LOT of peripheral parts and I was given over a thousand dollars in paint supplies by my very good and well connected neighbor...
And included with all of that is a new to me, used, galvanized trailer w/ disc surge brakes, completely re-furbished for about 700 bucks...
My best guess-timate is that I am within the last thousand bucks and 50-100 hours of labor to get this thing 96.791427% done...
I am also going to the extreme trouble of completely redesigning my cap to fit my needs and make the boat more "modern" in its usefulness...keeping that in mind, I could not get a boat like this for much less than 20-25,000 dollars brand new...that is a heaping helping of very unaffordable payments for me...doing it this way has been slow, but the costs are basically non-existent, since I just bought and paid for stuff as the funds have become available...
In the end I will probably have a Brand New, Kick-@$$ bass boat for about 6-7 grand, including the original purchase price of 800 bucks...and it should pretty much outlast me...
It sounds like a lot, but the reality is that your sweat equity is what makes this an affordable venture which will not only you teach you new skills and give you an awesome sense of satisfaction, but the pride in ownership will be above and beyond your expectations...
I can tell you from my personal experience, my own tub is only about 1/2 way done after almost 2 years in the works, but I brag about it to my friends like it is the latest, greatest thing to be built for the water, since the Vikings sailed...
Be assured that when you decide to tackle this fairly monumental task, that you have at your finger tips the greatest on line resource here at the Iboats Dry Dock...the guys here will give you all the info, pep talks, friendly ribbing and encouragement you will need to get this boat to better than new condition.
All in all I think you are way ahead of the game with a good running engine and a lot of reusable stuff, like your controls, wiring, upholstery and a ton of other bits and pieces, that you won't have to replace...
If all you need to do is replace the substructure of the boat, and maybe even re-gel coat or paint the whole thing...you could do this for the low end of the estimate...

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Thanks for the feedback - very helpful! Sounds like several of you feel it's worth investing in the transom and floor if the rest is in decent shape, which it seems to be, and the boat suits our needs, which it does - I do like it a lot! I just wish I had a spot and the time so I could do it myself (boat is at our family cottage, which is about 7 hrs from where I live...long story...). Now just need to find a trustworthy person to do the work and figure out a reasonable budget.

Question: what is best way to deal with a shop? I guess you don't know what the job will cost until you start getting into it and see how bad things are, so I obviously need to be flexible on budget to make sure I get it done properly. I am guessing you can't hold someone to their upfront estimate, and there'll be some back and forth as job progresses, but is it fair/appropriate/common to ask them for a maximum price that they commit not to exceed no matter what? (i.e. fixed price to gut and replace the whole thing). Thanks again for the input!

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

No to most of your questions, unfortunately. Having the boat work done 7hrs from your house isn't ideal. But neither is stopping by 4 times a week to check up on progress.

Our collective opinion was based on getting most of the labor & work done for free --YOUR labor, time & work

You are now talking about at least doubling the cost estimates above, if you do some portion of the work (demo, cleanup, put back of interior, etc,). Four times may be more accurate & still not enough if you aren't equipped to do any of the work at all.

It may even be tough to find a shop willing to do the work. It's a ton of labor & he'll be carrying all (or most of) the costs until you pick it up, or make a progress payment. Having a shop do the work tips the worth it scale the other way. And shop owners know it. That's why most OB repair places won't work on old motors. Its tough to find parts, which is time (re: $) and the labor far outweighs the value of the motor when finished. If you bail & don't pick it up, the shops got a $3K motor that's 'worth' $1K. Boats are worse: It'd be a $10K boat 'worth' $2500.

If you can't do the bulk of the labor (time, workspace, tools, etc) it would be better, IMHO, to buy a brand new boat. Put as much down as you can, and live w/ the payments. You could be on the water by July 4th.

Where are you? US? Our neighbors to the north.......

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Hi Roger,

JB Curt & GT give great advice.

Sounds like you don't want to do the work yourself - nothing wrong with that. I would have thought the cost for a professional restore in Canada (assuming you will be doing at least a flooring/foam/transom repair....and then maybe more) would be $4-$8k, on the basis of conversations with others who have done restorations to their boats. When I was looking at paying someone to do a restoration on mine (I'm doing it myself), I was told I would need to email photographs of the boat to the restorer for an estimate. I don't know who would do the restoration in your area, but I did a quick internet search for boat restorers in Toronto and came up with one name.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Patagonia-Boat-Works/346688791342

I know locally that I found about boat restorers by approaching my local marinas (not restorers) and asking who was good.

When dealing with them - ask for how they do their estimates - are these fixed price quotes
(you will pay what they estimate no matter what) - or will their estimates change based on what happens during the restore? I would also check them out by speaking to local marinas and finding out whether they have a good reputation.

There are two boat restorers local to me (one in Winnipeg, one in International Falls), but they are quite a ways from you...

Good luck.

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Thanks for the encouragement and great advice on dealing with shops, Peter. JB Curt, thanks to you too - to answer your question, I live in Toronto (Ontario) and boat is currently near Montreal (Quebec) so yes, friendly neighbours to the North!

Yea, I never intended to fix the boat myself, as much as I'd like to. I am not looking for top craftsmanship either (which is what I'd strive for if I did it myself), as boat it just not worth it. I just want to get it fixed right, but as cheaply as reasonably possible. I'm looking for someone who has experience doing the work (so it'll take a fraction of the time it would take me and thus labour costs won't be crazy), maybe does it in their spare time over the winter, aren't too busy, etc. I've actually managed to just find a couple, one referred to me by a marina as Peter suggested - one is estimating $2,700 ($1,200 for the floor and $1,500 for the transom - from experience he figure the Doral stringers will be okay), and the other is estimating $3,000 to $4,500 for everything - transom, floor, stringers, non-skid finish, etc. These estimates would basically double the cost of my boat to $5.7-7.5k, but it still feels like it might be worth doing after all?!

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Extremely tough decision to make...do not envy you at all...I really can't give you a good suggestion as to getting it done by someone else...unless of course you can find someone who has at least 3-5 references of jobs he has done and you can personally verify the quality of work...in my opinion, the quality of the work is the main reason we do this ourselves because like the saying goes, "if you want it done right..."
At the very least I would imagine that a quality restoration, done by a reputable individual, in a reasonable amount of time, is going to cost several thousand dollars...if one of the long lost members of the forum..."oops!"...was available, he could probably give you a fair and reasonable estimate of the costs and time it would take to do it right, since he actually had started a business doing just that in Canada...unfortunately he is among the missing ranks...
The only other thought I have is whether or not you could "dry dock" the boat in a location near you, for a reasonable rental fee, that would allow you to do the job yourself...?:noidea:
Let us know what you end up deciding and best of luck...

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

Will do, and thanks for the input, Captain GT! I'm getting good feedback from marinas and others on some of the guys I've spoken to and am being referred to a couple more which is great. Also checked on Kijiji (our main online classifieds) for boats to buy as alternative - really nothing that fits my needs and is "competitive" with what I think/hope will be my all-in cost and (hopefully) quality.

Re: 1989 Doral Spirit 175 - Decisions, decisions... - warning long post!

I live in the western GTA ie Toronto area and have restored 2 Doral Spirits as well as a number of other boats. Doral Spirits have great bones and are very restorable to an almost as new condition. If you want to contact me directly I can refer you to a local marine contractor within the GTA who has replaced 2 transoms for me with excellent results and a very reasonable price. In both cases he lifted the deck from the boat, replaced from the inside and the new transom was stronger than the original. All other work I did myself and it was not difficult just my time. If you want to send your contact information via info@charlescraft.ca I can direct you to my contact and answer any questions. Rick