Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Any help would be appreciated.

My tilt/trim was working poorly, sometimes not raising the motor at all, when it did with annoying noise. I noticed it was leaking through the top seal and losing fluid. Every time I filled it everything worked fine. I took everything apart and ordered the seal, backup and wiper and replaced them. Put it back together and now it will not lift.

I have since ordered the seal/o ring kit and have replaced them all. I replaced the quad seal and backups on the piston as well. The electric motor runs, backwards and forwards at speed with no noise. Seems okay...however when everything is connected the boat motor will not go up. The battery is also brand new.

My questions:

1. Is it most likely the pump assembly? Since I have just about replaced everything else?

2. Since I pushed the motor up (helping the motor) quite a few times, is it likely I pressure-blew something?

3. The manual valve keeps the motor from falling the last four inches or so, but it will not hold the motor up at any other spot. Is this likely related to the pump assembly, or could the manual be blown somehow (I have replaced the O rings, lubricated them, and nothing seems out of whack).

4. Is there a way to check the electric motor. I would hate to install the pump assembly and find it is the manual valve or motor.

Thanks for the help if possible! I am handy mechanically, but do not want to order the wrong parts. Would prefer not to take it to a mechanic and pay the labor charges.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Not counting the wiring connectors or paint color I have run across three variations of this system. My answer would depend upon which version you have.

the first and most obvious thing ... the driveshaft fell off during assembly. It wouldn't have run up or down on the bench if this happenned. So I assume this can't be it.

Assumming that you have the most common variant of OMC single ram trim. My first guess would be that you did not assemble the piston back onto the shaft properly and a bypass valve is leaking. Also, you are aware that if you fully extend this system then it will not lower without weight of engine to get it started.

assuming that the piston is okay, then my next guess would be something wrong with the seals that go under the gearcase.

assuming that is okay then I would wonder if the regulator was assembled in right order ... ball, cup, then spring.

if all of the above is okay then about the only thing left is your MRV. If you have a '93-2003 then you probably have the front mounted MRV. You should replace the tip whenever you do a rebuild. Maybe your mrv tip got torn?

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Thanks for the response RRTT. Yes, I have the 1997 J50TSLEUS, with possibly less than 50 hours.

The driveshaft is always in it when tested. Also, when I tested the motor it was always on the transom. The piston was up and the unit filled with the right fluid, but the motor will not stay up when I take off the lock. Nor will it go up when the electric motor runs. I was sure to check the MRV each time to be sure the screw was tightened. However, even on the work bench, once the piston was fully extended (with the MRV loosened), I am able to push it lower in the cylinder, by tapping it with the heal of my hand. I am wondering if that is how it should be.

Yes, I have the single ram. I believe I assembled the piston correctly. The bypass valves, I am assuming, are the springs and ball bearings with the one plasticized one? Those I checked, removed each and oiled, and was sure of the o ring and tightened the nut down with thread sealer inside. I don't think I missed anything here?

You mentioned the seals under the gearcase...is this the o rings under the pump assembly? They seem to be fine. I assembled the regulator with the ball at the bottom, then the cup with ball in the hollow part on the solid end, then the spring inside the cup pointing up toward the pump.

The end of the MRV looked fine, but I am wondering. I noticed you did not mention the pump assembly at all: do you think this is not likely to be the problem?

By the way, thanks for the response and your obvious knowledge.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

re: piston
5x ball, insert, spring
1x poppet (nipple down), spring
oring on shaft
washer with raised section facing down
nut - approx 40 torque

if that is correct then you are probably looking at a problem with MRV or check valve poppets.
Take out your mrv and hold it up to a light. make sure the rubber part of tip extends past the metal on all sides.
If you use your mrv a lot then replace with a hardness90 oring of size 008.
If you do not use your mrv a lot then use a hardness70 square cut oring (aka square ring) of size 008
make sure old seal is out and mrv is totally clean. Tack new seal in place with super glue.

if that isn't it, then you next need a pair of poppets. check ebay.

if it isn't MRV or poppets then you have some oddball problem and we may never get it it here.

it's almost never the pump. when it is the pump then the gears are usually burned and won't turn by hand. I assume that you would have mentioned that.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Thanks!

I will check further on the MRV and the poppets after that. I did install the piston as you said, only, I don't have a torque wrench. I tightened the nut so the shoulder of the washer is close enough to the piston to hold the O ring in place. It was tight, but not over tight. One tap with a hammer (scientific).

It is actually a relief on your thoughts on the pump (the pump didn't make much sense because it was working fine before and its expensive). The gears move freely and simultaneously.

Thanks again for your help. I am ready to be finished with this particular project!

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

RRitt,

I have pulled the MRV again. The tip is intact, thin, with the rubber going to the edge on all sides (open in the center), but not beyond. There is a small raised ring molded in the rubber that still seems okay. I never use the MRV (only for this repair).

So, your suggestion is to remove this tip and super glue the O ring suggested to the tip. Follow up question, is there any way anything inside the MRV could fail (I don't know how they are made). In other words, is there a chance I should order the entire unit, or is that usually fail safe if the tip and o rings are good?

Also pulled the poppets with everything else and on inspection they all seem undamaged. Is this something I may not see with my eyes?

Thanks again, I feel I am almost there.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

if you are getting 360 degrees of solid rubber seal then you are good. A lot of times the MRV is compressed and cracked to the point that it does not make a good seal. there is no need to order a whole mrv. If it gets worn out then just replace the seal.

I just always replace the tip because it is easier. I have a quick change toolpost set up for my lathe that cuts out the old MRV tip seal on any 1972-2003 Evinrude-Johnson. I don't even bother trying to figure out if they are good. I cut and fix regardless of condition.

you can't tell the original poppet by inspection. you have to pull out the seat, insert the poppet and see the assembled pair is air-tight (and keep them paired during install).

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Thanks again.

I'll let you know how things turn out...or don't. You've been a lot of help.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

RRitt,

You mentioned the 008 O ring in a 90 hardness. Would this be an O ring with measurements: Internal diameter 3/16", Outside diameter 5/16, and cross section 1/16. I'm not familiar with O ring measurements and looked this up on a chart. Also, where I went (they did not know the hardness) do I need to visit a specialty store that will know hardness?

I have done everything, still no lift. I rechecked the piston and everything else. All in order. I slightly damaged one of the poppet seats in removing it and have it ordered. I will try it (another $35), but am not hopeful.

I still wonder if I damaged something when I lifted the motor when the manual was still seated (screwed in). Is there anything in the hydraulics that I could have blown?

Also, there is some minor scoring in the cylinder. I cannot feel it with the pad of my finger, but can just detect a small scoring with my fingernail. Would that be enough to bypass the piston under pressure?

Thanks again...uh...Captain.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

i don't think of orings in terms of dimensions. to me it is a size 008. you could go to a site such as martin fluid power and look up id & od for size 008.

as regards seat. just swap front to back and the leak, if any, will reverse directions.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Sorry for slow reply. Thanks again RRitt. Not sure if I am going to get his job done. I have exhausted just about everything.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

if you fully give up then go to ebay and find a mail-in rebuild service. As long as you have a complete freshwater system then all the details are included. the flat rate saves you $150ish by keeping your existing motor but takes 7-10 days for rebuild. An exchange costs more but there is no waiting for repairs.

On the other hand, I think you are close now. there is just some detail somewhere that is escaping. Maybe as one last, final effort pull the poppet and seats both. Wash them clean enough to eat off of. Then simply suck on them to make sure they are airtight when the poppet is pushed into hole. If not, then that's the problem. If you have 1989 there may be additional layers to the problem. If you have 92-03 then it should be just the plastic poppet itself. I've never seen "additional layers" in 90-91 but I guess it's possible.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Thanks again. I will try the poppets and seats as you suggested (I was wondering how to test for airtightness). I will continue to try for awhile, then go the rebuild route on ebay if necessary. Mine is a 97.

Either way, thanks again for your help and I will follow up with a final word on results.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

What year is this engine again?

just a light pressure with your finger should establish airtightness. squeeze the spring between your fingers and try to imitate that.

The original poppet design is not really that good. It does not have any oring or gasketing capability and therefore no tolerance for aging, machine variance, or rust stains. The pressure of the hydraulic oil will drive the poppet into the hole and force the plastic to conform. The plastic and the metal need to have a very close machining angle because the plastic has a minimal capability to deform without damage. When re-using poppets it is extremely important that you try and keep the poppets and metal seats as a matched pair. Some of the older systems have to be hand matched whether using new poppets or not. It is starting to sound like you have an old system that needs hand matched poppets.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

OK. I have kept the pairs together throughout the process. I tried the test you suggested and they both seem airtight.

My engine is a 1997. Specifically a J50TSLEUS. Thanks again...have not given up yet.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

i think you might be out of the realm of "easy". we have covered all the usual suspects.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

To all who might be reading this. I have sent my unit off for a rebuild, but will post here if I find out if I did something wrong. Sending the unit this week.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

OK. I received the lift unit back, installed it and all is okay.

The person that worked on the unit said everything I had installed was done properly, but in the case of my unit, the poppets would have done the job. Since I did not order the new poppets (by that time was too gun shy to order, wait for delivery, then install and possibly be disappointed), I sent the unit in.

Hope this helps! By they way, thanks RRitt for all of your advice (and if I had followed it by ordering the poppets I would have saved the money for rebuild). Also, if you are having this problem and like me at the end of your mechanical rope, I was pleased with the rebuild service at Ebay, now for $229.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

LOL, i am the guy on ebay doing the rebuilds. Your workmanship was good. Your MRV was working and your piston was properly assembled. Everything you did was right. BY process of elimination it had to be the poppets. BTW, your new MRV tip does not need to be "tightened" as much as "seated". If you experiment gently you'll see that there is about 1/3rd turn after seal contacts bottom. You don't want to go the full 1/3. Just past fingertight is best.

Re: Johnson 50 with tilt/trim problems

Yep. Knew that it was you. Didn't think it was my place to say it.

Thanks again1