150 HP Force has me stumped

OK, pnwboat helped me out a couple of weeks ago and I was pretty confident my troubles were over, but my motor has failed me yet again.
Here is what happened:
- Launch boat
- Motor starts right up
- idle out of the little cordoned off launch area to the main lake
- apply throttle
- motor dies SUDDENLY
- starter will not turn the flywheel more than an eighth around after this
- get back home and pull the plugs and it will turn over (not seized)

Now, like I said pnwboat helped me out a while back and all the battery connections are clean and tight and the carbs adjusted.

The battery is brand new and charged.

I installed a see-through inline filter between the pumps and carbs and had fuel.

COMPRESSION:
1 - 4 ~ 135 lbs
5 ~ 90 lbs

Last year the motor would stall at cruising speed on occasion but always start right back up.

I am really out of ideas for what this could be so any guesses are welcome.

I was thinking about pulling the head and checking the gasket but if it is possibly something easier to check I would be very happy.

Motor is a 1991J.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Sounds electrical, I think I would look for a short which maybe related to the action of the throttle lever, possibly snagging inside the control or linkage movement on motor.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

You posted the problem.
The comp on #5 90#
It takes even comp on all cylinders to turn over right.
Doesn't seem like it would but it does.
The stalling? That could be an electrical problem.Loose connection/key switch or kill button.
The linkage if it's not set up right could cause it to die.
You need to fix the low comp first.
First take the head off and check the gasket and pray that it's the problem.
Th

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Part of the problem--and unfortunately I do not have a solution-- is that Force used the same starter motor for three, four, and five cylinder engines. Cranking over that big 5 cylinder without compression release puts the starter at the limit of its performance. When I bought my 150, I needed to put in four different starters before I found one that would crank it adequately. But, I have lots of starters lying around and can do that.

This engine really needed a reduction gear starter like the bigger 'Rudes have.

Only suggestion is to open up the starter and be certain the brushes and commutator are clean and not worn.

Someday I may see if I can modify a Merc 115 starter to fit and see if it improves cranking.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Oh yeah, when pnwboat was looking things over we went through the starter and it looked fine.
He suggests I replace my battery cables with 2ga and I think that is a fine idea but I really want to figure out the sudden death while running first.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Yes we took the starter apart and just cleaned it up. Everything looked fine. From what John is saying after the motor dies suddenly, when he tries to restart, the starter won't turn the motor over. It's like the starter doesn't have enough voltage to start. This is not long after it started the motor just fine at the dock. Also the fact that this is a battery powered ignition system (not stator powered like most systems) makes me think that there is a possibility that the two problems may be related to battery supply voltage. The battery is brand new. We're going to check it out again and see what we come up with. Good thing you have a trolling motor!

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

I had the same issue a few weeks ago. Replace the Fuel Line it's self, from the fuel pump to the barb on the side of the boat! The inner lining is probably all plugged up inside and you can't see it! Also, clean all the contacts on the back of your ignition switch. I had the identical situation 3 weeks ago and this is what solved my issues. I even pulled the starter, the solenoid, the neutral cut off switch, etc. What year is your 150 and what is it on?

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

It is a 1991 on a Crestliner 216.
I have been thinking about the ignition switch too and will douse it with contact cleaner.

I am pretty sure the fuel is getting there.

Yeah Ed, that little 6hp Johnson has saved me a lot lately . . .

Now a general question about the low compression.
I realize it is something that needs to be addressed, but wouldn't it cause a problem constantly and not sporadically?
I mean the motor idled pretty good (you agree Ed?).

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Yes the motor idles pretty good considering. We'll get to the bottom of it eventually. I have a couple of suspicions as to the cause. This time when we test it, I'll be better prepared.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Next time after it stalls and you try to turn it over spray some oil in it to bring up the comp. and see if it makes it turn easier.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

jerryjerry05 said:

Next time after it stalls and you try to turn it over spray some oil in it to bring up the comp. and see if it makes it turn easier.

Click to expand...

Since I am still on the last stall I will give it a shot.
You mean TCW3 or I have some 30W. Which one?

Also, if I decide to pull the head off to take a closer look and it looks OK, can I reuse the current head gasket?
I thought I read where someone recommended reusing it bevause it negated the need for a break-in re torque.

I am just trying to avoid spending a of of money on turd polish here.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

TCW is ok even the 30wt is ok.
Depending on the condition of the gasket.
If it's been on there a while.It's not gonna work twice.
Depending on the condition, you can try it?Maybe a bit of silicone in the bad spots?
Before you pull off the head. Do a de-carb on the bottom cylinder.
Mercury's Powertune or OMC's Engine Tuner. Work great.
Seafoam NOT.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

OK.
I pulled the cables that run from the battery to the motor completely out to change them to a heavier gauge (pnwboat recommended this).
I then got a little bored last night and checked the continuity of the cables.
From red end to red end was effectively zero ohms.
From black to black the same.
All good, right?

Then, just for S&Gs, I checked from a red end to a black end.
It read 1,500 ohms.

That was interesting to me and the meter I was using was a bit suspect so I checked it with another meter I have (an el cheapo from HF).
Same result.

This was not constant. It occurred randomly as the cable (it is a two lead cable molded together) was in different positions.

Now, pnwboat has been educating me on this motor and I understand it to run off the battery as it recharges it (unlike the old style auto alternator systems where you could run with the battery disconnected once the motor was running).

So, here is my theory:
I have an intermittent short in the cable from the battery to the motor.
This allowed the motor to run fine in a tank when me and pwnboat went over it a few weeks ago (the cable performed).
When I went to the lake, steering the boat positioned the cable in such a way the cable got continuity from the positive on the battery to ground (not a dead short -POP-, but less resistance than the ignition system).
Said continuity deprived the ignition system of the necessary current to operate so the motor suddenly died.
Trying to restart was futile as now there was not enough current to the starter.

Solution?
New cable from battery to motor and I am back on the water.

Please tell me if this is a desperation frenzy or a valid possibility.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Glad you figured out the bad cable
Don't let the 90# of comp go.
Mercury's Powertune or OMC's Engine Tuner work on bringing up the comp.
Both are the same product, both remove carbon really well. Follow directions and it might help?

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

jerryjerry05 said:

Glad you figured out the bad cable
Don't let the 90# of comp go.
Mercury's Powertune or OMC's Engine Tuner work on bringing up the comp.
Both are the same product, both remove carbon really well. Follow directions and it might help?

Click to expand...

I am really hoping it is the problem and I am not just clutching at straws.

I will most certainly run that Powertune if the cable is indeed the culprit.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

The cables WERE NOT the problem.
I had a buddy come over and take a look and he was concerned the motor itself had a broken component because it was so difficult to turn over by hand with the plugs out. I was about ready to pull the head and look for a broken piston or scored cylinder but called my other buddy pnwboat first.
He told me to pull the lower unit off to isolate the motor as the cause.
Sure enough, with the lower unit removed the motor spun freely by hand with the plugs out.

I took the lower unit over to pnw's and we (he, I pretty much watched) proceeded to tear it apart.

Here is a picture of the culprit:


New theory.
This thing was just floating and would sieze up periodically and with more frequency as it continued to deteriorate causing the sudden stall and no restart.

Won't be able to give an update until week after next but I am pretty optimistic about the situation.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

PNW one heck of a good guy!!
Good thing he's close

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Sounds alot like my 150 was doing.Thought it was battery or bad connection but after reading on here how to cold start a force have not had any more trouble.Now I know that sounds wrong but try it.Mine will only crank the motor 1/2 turn if lucky but give it 1/2 throttle in neutarl cranks and starts everytime.Can not tell you why but it dose.I have been fighting starting this motor for the 8 years i have had this boat.Now that I learned this cold start trick have not had any trouble this year.Had it out today any time I try to start it in neutarl nothing give throttle firers rite up dont ask why it just dose.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

Well after a sea test with PNW and a trip to the lake with the family I am almost convinced my troubles with this motor are over.
That bearing in the lower unit solved the problems.

Now I just need to figure out how to raise the motor about 2 inches from where it is mounted now and it should be perfect.
I just wanted to let you all know the problem and solution and give a big thanks to PNWBOAT.

He's a good guy.

BTW, I asked the question "does a splash well count as set back for an outboard when calculating motor mounting height" and never really got a good answer. You Force guys are great but the general boat question forum not so much.

Re: 150 HP Force has me stumped

The cavitation plate, should be about even with the bottom of the boat.
Maybe a bit deeper.But not too high!!
The splashwell height is not a consideration.
The depth to the bottom from the top of the transom is what's important.
My boat comes stock with 2 85/s it also came with a single 125.
They just cut the transom down 5 more inches to fit the single.
So measure up from the bottom.