Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Hi all!
Well, the time has come. Replacing the deck in my 87 Citation. I read through the articles and really just want a verification before I start.

My plan is to:
Epoxy the heck out of all sides of my cutout replacement deck (I got a deal on marine ply, so I just went with that rather than normal ply)
Let it soak in and dry to a tack.
Lay down a layer of 1.5 glass with 4" of skirt going up the hull
Epoxy
Let it dry
Lay down an additional layer of 1.5 glass
Epoxy
Let it dry
Roll on a layer of gel-coat
Let it dry
Screw in the deck through a puddle of resin or marine sealer at each point
Slop on some carpet adhesive
Lay down carpet
Reinstall seats
Beer

Am I missing anything? Is the gelcoat really necessary if I'm going to be laying down carpet?

I read through the differences between epoxies in the how-tos pinned at the top of this forum, but started going cross-eyed.

Tools aside, I'm thinking all I really need to buy is:
Epoxy Resin
Hardener
Glass sheets
Rollable Gel coat

I'm thinking a gallon of each liquid would be more than enough. The area I'm doing is only about 88" x 120"

Or am I missing something? Also, can someone recommend good products from some place such as *********(I have a gift card ), West Marine or other location?

If there's a thread I missed in the sticky, I apologize. Just let me know. I usually try my best to search all these subjects before making a post. Thanks!

PS - The foam is dry and the stringers are solid, JUST doing a replacement deck here.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Your deck layup should look like this:



Fasten your decking to your stringers before glassing in your deck.

You should use polyester resin instead of epoxy if you intend to gel coat, gel won't bond to epoxy... and no real need to gel if you glass in your deck correctly and are going to install carpet.

Don't penetrate your newly glassed in deck with fasteners for seating, glass in nailers to your deck for seat anchoring.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

No expert.....they will be along soon.

I used Polyester on mine.......But tab in the edges first with your strips, then lay your glass sheets over the deck.

Im thinking you can do several layers at one time...you have to work very fast as the resin set's up quick.
Use the cheap wooden brushes and cut a 1/2" of the bristles off.....to dab the resin.
I found that using the roller to flatten out and come back with brush to soak it in.

Good luck on your project!

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

If you use Epoxy you do not use 1.5 oz CSM mat (glass). You only use Glass Cloth with Epoxy. As JNG suggested I'd recommend using Polyester resin as well. The drawing JNG posted shows you how to install the deck. The entire wood deck, top and bottom, needs to be pre-coated with Poly resin and the bottom needs 1 layer of 1.5 oz CSM applied. Poly resin without mat becomes brittle and will crack allowing water penetration. On the top apply one layer of 1.5 oz CSM and extend it 3" up onto the sides of the hull, Follow that with 6" band of 1708 Biaxial Cloth (3" on the Deck 3" on the sides of the hull", Finish up with 1 more full layer of 1.5 oz CSM. Use surfacing wax in the last layer of resin on the deck to get a Non Tack surface You can then apply the carpet adhesive and lay the carpet. I'd recommend Weldwood Contact Cement but make sure you have the carpet where you want it cuz once it's stuck you can't move it or adjust it. Hope this helps.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Ok, I think I've got it.

So basically, this ought to do it:


Certain changes, obviously. I'm not confident enough in my carpet laying skills to not be able to adjust. Also, I can't seem to find the 1708 anywhere besides ebay or in large sheets that cost $200/pop.

Since I'm using all resin I don't need to buy hardener because it's not an epoxy, right?

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

You can buy 1708 here in as little as 1 sq. yd. increments:
Specialty Fabrics

Their poly resin is $20 a gallon cheaper too.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Based on your measurements you'll need 15 yds of the CSM mat ( 60" x 36 " = 1 yd.) it will take 5 Gallons of resin to do all of the glass work, and you WILL need the hardener that goes with the Poly Resin. You will also need a bit of Surfacing wax for the final layer on the deck. You really need to search and study some of the projects here on the forum so you'll have a better idea of what you'll be doing before you order stuff you can't use.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Ok, NOW I've got it. I've been reading my *** off and talked to a couple old dude who've done it before.

I'm purchasing (rounding up in many ways in case I need extra):
5 gallons of Polyester Resin (Includes 12oz hardener)
1 pint of Surfacing wax (2oz/gal on the top layer, but the smallest they sell is a pint)
22 yards of 38" 1.5oz CSM mat
3 yards of 38" Biaxial Cloth (Marine grade 1708)

I think I've got it now. Thanks again guys!

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

I don't see anything for making Filleting material, i.e. Cabosil. You'll need it to thicken the resin and fill the gap between the deck and the sides of the hull

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Guys I talked to just said to lay in a thick bead of marine caulk before tabbing.

Sounded fine to me, really. I only paid about $500 for the boat/trailer, so I'm trying to not do anything too-too-fancy... If I can fish off it for 3 years or so before buying a nicer boat, so be it. I guess you could say that this boat, is filler Not really a resto project.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

IMHO that's not a good idea but...it's your boat and you can do as you see fit.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

I'm just trying to stay as cost-effective as I can. I have caulk already, so it was a plus to me when the neighbor said "yeah, that'll work." Unfortunately, I'm trying to get by with bare, but safe, minimums. If I could get by safely by just pounding in new plywood and hitting it with Thompson's I probably would, but it's not, so I won't, heh.

I hate to see anything fall into dilapidation, but this particular boat, to get it the exact way I'd want it, would cost twice as much as buying a boat that's already the way I want it, you know? I just happened to be in right place at the right time to pick it up for $500 from a buddy of mine. If it were a classic Chris Craft or Lyman, I'd have a different tune, but I've one of the boats from the "disposable days" of the late 80s... I'm really hesitant to drop thousands upon thousands into it, you know? I know boats are money pits and that if it's worth doing then it's worth doing right, however...not with this one. =\ I hate feeling that way about something, but this one is really just a get-me-by boat that I'm not planning on having for much longer than 3 years or so.

Sorry for the novel. If you think the need is warranted, I'll throw some wood flour and some aerosil on my order.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Ok, I've re-read your entire thread. You originally posted that the foam was dry and stringers were solid. You said nothing about How you knew this. Did you Core sample the foam? If it's wet it will be at the bottom not the top. You need to use some 2" PVC pipe, cut some "Teeth" in one end and "Twist Drill" it down into the foam till you hit bottom. Pull it out and see what you get. What did you do to come to the the conclusion that the stringers were sound? If the boat is totally foam filled, how were you able to ascertain the condition of the stringers? Have you core sampled them by drilling into them from the top or the sides? this is the only way I know to make certain they are not wet and rotting. How about the transom? Have you core sampled it? Down Low, on the inside drilling into it about 1" deep and inspected the shavings to see if they are dry? Is this an I/O or an Outboard powered boat? You have not posted any pics of her so we have no idea what you are working on. 26 yr old boats with bad decks usually have issues with the foam, stringers and transoms too. Safety is the most important issue. Putting a new deck down over rotting stringers and a wet transom is an unsafe situation. You would do well to read this...http://forums.iboats.com/boat-restoration-building-hull-repair/transom-repair-605034.html

Not trying to bust your chops but it seems your trying to rush into this repair and not paying attention to the details. Momma always said..."The Devil's in the Details!!!"

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

We pulled the deck, so the stringers are out and free. The foam is in between the stringers filled pretty much to the top. So, the foam is level with the tops of the stringers, but not covering them. The stringers I can just tell because they're very, very hard and have no visable signs of wear on them. I test drove a couple screws into them and they hold as well as I could expect. The foam, I guess, I can't be 100% sure of as I didn't take a core sample, but it was dry to the touch and I cut about 6" down with a knife and it looked good.

Transom I can visually see with the engine cover off and battery covers removed. It's not soft at all to the touch (and light hammering with a rubber mallet) I also don't note any flex when we gun the engine. We had it in the water last year a few times.

It's a 19' cuddy with a 140hp Mercruiser sterndrive. I don't have any recent photos, but this is what I'm dealing with:


I don't have any picture of our work-in-progress stuff unfortunately...

I don't blame you at all. In fact it's what I'm looking for really, heh. We have a place on the lake and there's a lot of people from which you can get great advice, but they're not always right.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Soooo, Basically you don't know if the foam is wet, or if the stringers are solid or the motor mounts are sound, or the transom is either. Again if the boat is foam filled how can the stringers be out and free? Since this is an I/O I would Highly recommend that you core sample the Transom, Motor Mounts and any exposed stringers that you can. Simple enuf to do and that way you will know if they are good to go or not. I would never put a deck on a boat that I was not sure about the condition of the stringers, motor mounts and transom. If they're good, just use some 3M 5200 sealant to fill the holes and then put your deck down. I would add some cabosil to my order and fill the gap with thickened resin and NOT caulk. It's really Cheap stuff. Resin and glass will not adhere to caulk. Momma said..."If it's worth doing it's worth doing Right!"

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Ok, so I'm necro-ing this thread because I don't want to create a new one. Anyhow! I feel like I'm coming back with my tail between my legs and want to offer apologies for wasting anybody's time or causing any frustration.

So now, I've done even more homework. I'm ripping out the foam, but the stringers, transom and engine mounts are solid. Drilled into, verified, filled.

I want to thank you all for providing insight and education for me. I've got almost all my materials amassed and hope to FINALLY (after way too long) will be constructing here soon.

I did have a quick question about my particular deck though. You can see in this image that the deck butts directly up to the hull.


My deck looks like this (excuse the crappy, not-to-scale, MS-paint drawn cross section)



Can I just delete those "boxes" that are there and mate it directly to the side of the hull or should I try to reconstruct them? I used to have stowage on the sides, but I was planning on deleting them anyway, so a box just eats up more deck space imho. They're glassed in (but rotted from the underneath). Can I just cut it from the side of the hull and sand it down?

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Were the boxes foam filled or empty cavities? How tall are they? If 12" or so they could be adding additional Flex support to the sides of the hull and if so, would need to be replaced. Usually it's good practice to put things back the way they were. The engineers that designed and built the boat originally, did so for good reason. Making changes can sometimes have adverse affects on the boat. Not saying that's the case here, just that you need to consider the WHY before you make the change.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

Woodonglass said:

Were the boxes foam filled or empty cavities? How tall are they? If 12" or so they could be adding additional Flex support to the sides of the hull and if so, would need to be replaced. Usually it's good practice to put things back the way they were. The engineers that designed and built the boat originally, did so for good reason. Making changes can sometimes have adverse affects on the boat. Not saying that's the case here, just that you need to consider the WHY before you make the change.

Click to expand...

They're about 4" x 4" and they're completely hollow. I'm pretty sure they're cosmetic from the looks of it.

Re: Confirmation / Quick question to verify

I'd venture to say you'd prolly be ok to remove them then. If you tab up the sides 6" with CSM and 1708 it should be plenty strong. I'm not a Nautical Engineer so no guarantees but more than likely it'll be fine.