Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

I had one boat shop last year do a new CDI, stator and rectifier to fix a bad ignition issue that didn't seem to know what they were doing and overcharged me. I've tried to take the boat out 3 times since and due to clogged carbs the end of last year and the twice after the timing advance linkage came off I haven't had a successful trip on the lake. I had to run the boat twice in the non optimal state just to get back to the dock and was worried about damage to the engine. I dropped the boat off at a known OMC repair shop stating to give the engine a good health check and fix the linkage among several other issues I wanted fixed. I did a compression check before I dropped it off and the lowest compression was 96, the highest was 102 and the most came out at 98. The boat shop called and said it failed their leak down test and the engine should be rebuilt. Now I haven't gotten a price or details if they want a full rebuild or maybe just a hone and rering or something to that affect. Given that the compression numbers are within a close percentage of each other that tells me there shouldn't be any major issues unless I'm missing something but I deal with cars and 4 stroke ATV's none of the 2 stroke crap that drives me nuts.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Somewhere along the line you either need to find a reputable mechanic or learn to do it yourself. I can well understand your concern as I was there 2 years ago with a E-Tec. I got took bigtime. Done some more research and took it to another shop this spring, then we found more that the 1st shop did/didn't do.

If you are now doing cars/ATVs, transition over to 2 cycle will be easy if you get some basics.

Now to your question, I have seen a 9.9hp with a sucked upper ring gland, blown hole out the crankcase but still had 120# compression & it still ran (well sort of).

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

I've never had much luck doing a leak down test on a two stroke. On a four stroke, that's a different story. I've had leak down tests on a two stroke show up bad and yet they ran just fine. Especially when they had good compression. You have to remember a lot of two strokes have pressure backed rings. JMHO

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

What motor are you speaking of? Some of the v6's and such were low compression, I believe....
I'm not understanding why you have such trouble with a totally simple 2-stroke outboard. I have lots more trouble out of cars and other 4-stokes!
What are all the "issues" you wanted fixed?
Just curious about all the problems you're having with the motor, so a solution could be found to fix it. If the compression range is 96-102 on all cylinders and it's a low compression motor, I'd seriously doubt their conclusion of a leakdown test. However, if the motor typically has 120-140psi, I'd think it was overheated or ran without oil and does need a rebuild.
Also, if the motor is pretty old and has a ton of problems besides the fact that it needs rebuilding I would suggest buying a good used motor.
JMO,
JBJ

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Its not always the mechanics fault. Someone walks in and starts bad mouthing the motor and saying how its always breaking down and it may have a problem and i want it fixed like new........well press the easy button thats going to be the full health check which will end up with a new or rebuilt motor. Happens in garages all the time when your asked to make the 100k motor run like new and be as reliable as new. Tell the mechanic you are planning to get another couple of years out of it and see if he changes his mind then get a second quote

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

jbjennings said:

What motor are you speaking of? Some of the v6's and such were low compression, I believe....
I'm not understanding why you have such trouble with a totally simple 2-stroke outboard. I have lots more trouble out of cars and other 4-stokes!
What are all the "issues" you wanted fixed?
Just curious about all the problems you're having with the motor, so a solution could be found to fix it. If the compression range is 96-102 on all cylinders and it's a low compression motor, I'd seriously doubt their conclusion of a leakdown test. However, if the motor typically has 120-140psi, I'd think it was overheated or ran without oil and does need a rebuild.
Also, if the motor is pretty old and has a ton of problems besides the fact that it needs rebuilding I would suggest buying a good used motor.
JMO,
JBJ

Click to expand...

It's an 89 Ranger with an 89 150HP V6 149.4 Cubic Inch Evinrude. I bought it from a dealer 4 years ago that had been sitting for awhile and needed new carpet and vinyl. The dealer got it where it ran good in their pit but after I took in home there was a flood and basically ruined any taking it out most of that year so i redid the vinyl, carpet and gauges. It ran pretty decent the next year but intermittently wouldn't start when it was cold so I replaced the plugs, wires and coilpacks and got it running pretty good. I always thought it was sluggish out of the hole but figured the prop was too big since the original owner was a tournament fisher. I downsized it by two sizes but was still on the big side still tops out at 60 on flat water at about 5500. The next year I was in another area and most of the places I went fishing didn't allow big gas motors so I used trolling motor only and started to have cold start issues again. Then last spring I diagnosed it to have a bad stator which I tried to replace myself but couldn't get the flywheel off and bent the puller I was using. I figured the labor would be cheap as it's a simple job but the boat place said it was the CDI, then that didn't fix it they said it was the ignition switch acting up, then they finally said yes it was the stator each time the assured me that the replacement parts were only for a 2 year span that I had an unlucky model year. 1500 bucks and 3 months later I had the boat back and due to a drought (I moved areas each year) the lake was way down and couldn't take the boat out. Finally this year I tried to take it out as it was running good out of the water but after 5 minutes in the water it wasn't running on all 6. The carbs got gummed up and would idle but wouldn't rev up. I was only 100 feet from the ramp but with the wind it was quite taxing to get it to the ramp, I purposely switch the choke valve to try to feed more fuel trying not to screw anything up. I pulled the carbs, soaked and cleaned them good then replaced the fuel lines with ethanol approved lines and replaced the choke primer that was leaking. Seemed to run really good out of the water but when I tried to go it would stall. I took it all apart thinking I missed something but didn't see anything, I did notice the linkage to the timing slider piece was off but thought I had done it somehow. Next trip everything seemed great, still a little sluggish out of the hole but seemed to go good once on plane. The lake was real rough that day and about 2 miles from the ramp it stalled. Would idle great and start to go then fall on it face and almost stall. I got it back to the ramp doing about 4 miles an hour. After inspecting everything and doing a compression check I found that the linkage for the timing slider had come off again. I noticed that the shop the year before that worked on the stator unhooked the alarm for some reason. I did some basic trouble shooting on the alarm by unhooking the oil sender, head temp sender and the VRO alarm but it still kept buzzing. I decided I would take it in to get a health check done, figure out why the linkage keeps popping off, double check the work of the previous shop, fix a squealing tilt trim, fix the alarm buzzer and replace a spindle that I'd damaged last year going cross country when a bearing fell apart on me.

That's about the entire history of it I understand in the 4 stroke world you do a compression test and if it reveals any cylinders that aren't inline of the rest then you do a leak down to figure out how bad and where it's leaking. As for a 2 stroke there's no valves to worry about the only leak down is on the rings/cylinder walls. The only downside I can see to a compression test is if the cylinder is still pulling gas/oil mix in from the carbs it will help seal the rings just as if you put a little oil down the cylinder of a car engine to see if the compression test ups the numbers you can test for ring seal issues.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Brusk,
I have very little experience with motors of the horsepower that you speak of----bear that in mind.
ON the two strokes outboards I've worked on, they hit full spark advance by about 1/2 throttle, so I'd say if the linkage for the spark advance is coming loose (why??), that could definitely cause the motor to lose power when giving it throttle. I would also check each plug wire for sufficient spark with an air gap tester. Last of all, I would see that all carbs were synchronized.

I think you need to find a different shop. WIth compression that close, I just don't see an overhaul being in order at all. Sounds like a bunch of little things that require a little attention from a knowledgeable mechanic. I can't help much with the warning buzzers or the trim....
There are several guys here that are professionals that can help far more than I.
Hope you find some help,
JBJ

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

jbjennings said:

Brusk,
I have very little experience with motors of the horsepower that you speak of----bear that in mind.
ON the two strokes outboards I've worked on, they hit full spark advance by about 1/2 throttle, so I'd say if the linkage for the spark advance is coming loose (why??), that could definitely cause the motor to lose power when giving it throttle. I would also check each plug wire for sufficient spark with an air gap tester. Last of all, I would see that all carbs were synchronized.

I think you need to find a different shop. WIth compression that close, I just don't see an overhaul being in order at all. Sounds like a bunch of little things that require a little attention from a knowledgeable mechanic. I can't help much with the warning buzzers or the trim....
There are several guys here that are professionals that can help far more than I.
Hope you find some help,
JBJ

Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah I could probably do most of it but was one of those things I just didn't want to have the headache where a good shop could knock it all out in no time for a few hundred bucks. If more people agree that the compression check is fine and a leak down test isn't necessary or accurate then I'll just get the boat back and start going through a list myself to check everything out. It's just annoying to have to run to the boat ramp every time to check things. This is the 2nd boat shop I've tried in the area and the only authorized dealer in the area that I could find. I know the 1st shop didn't know what the hell they were doing, this one seemed to but might be a shady business.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

[h=2] Re: Evinrude 150 V6 Compression?[/h]

"Did you take the compression reading with all 6 plugs out of the motor? The older 140 V4 crossflow engines would run in the 145 range. Most V6 egnines are much lower. I would expect to see 95 on that engine, unless it is an "S" model-which could run 10# higher. You can run a can of engine tuner through it and see if the compression comes up any. If not, you have a candidate for an overhaul."
This quote from "emdsapmgr" from an old post not pertaining to your motor.
I have seen him give advice for quite a while now, and always found it to be sound. It sounds like the compression on yours is good to me.
I was actually hoping emdsapmgr, dhadley, or faztbullet in particular would answer your thread. I think they are all pros and super good with these big hp motors.
Keep in mind, the dealer could be right. I suspect that sometimes the dealers discourage folks from getting work done to a motor this old because there's not a lot of profit in it and it's hard to make the customer happy on a deal like this because something else could go wrong with it.


​

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Yes all 6 plugs were out. As I previously posted my main concern after looking back is the fact that I would imagine fuel/oil mix would still be cycling through during the test which would help seal any damaged cylinder walls or ring issues.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

1989 150hp Evinrude V6.

That 2nd outboard repair shop.... their diagnostic conclusion was based on a "Leak Down" test, a Leak Down test on a two stroke engine??? There is no such thing as a Leak Down test on a two stroke engine! Where are you located?

I attempted to read your explanation as per post #6 above but was unable to due to that one very long paragraph... after a few lines, everything runs together... best to use short paragraphs and stick to what pertains to the engines problems.

The heat warning horn... Does it sound off as soon as the key is turned on? If not, approximately how long is the engine running before it comes on? Which warning are you receiving... beep every other second, beep every 20 or 40 seconds, or a constant steady beeeeeeping?

What is the problem with the engine right now?

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Located in Dallas, TX. Sorry for the long post tried to include a full history since I've been working on it more than it's been on the water.

Alarm buzzer sounds non stop when they key is on and engine is not running. Constant buzz with no stopping.

Problems right now are stiff throttle, timing linkage that has popped off twice, alarm buzzer, sluggish out of the hole, .

17 Foot Ranger with 22 4 blade Cyclone prop that the trim has to be all the way down or it won't get to plane. Even at 1/4 up on the trim gauge won't plane.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

The compression should be good to go. The timer rod, needs the plastic retainer replace. Stiff throttle on bass boat means cable replacement. Constant buzzer with key on, bad buzzer, wires, sensors.

Vro pump connected or dis connected?????????

This engine has Quick Start, read manual. Check timer base, start side and run side.



More info if requsted.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

thanks, guess I'll go pick it up and tell the shop the screw themselves and I'll start going through everything item at a time and post up each piece as it comes if I can't figure it out.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

brusk said:

Located in Dallas, TX.
Alarm buzzer sounds non stop when they key is on and engine is not running. Constant buzz with no stopping.
Problems right now are stiff throttle, timing linkage that has popped off twice, alarm buzzer, sluggish out of the hole.
17 Foot Ranger with 22 4 blade Cyclone prop that the trim has to be all the way down or it won't get to plane. Even at 1/4 up on the trim gauge won't plane.

Click to expand...

I assume you're saying that the warning horn comes on as soon as you tun the key to the RUN position. If so, with it beeping, remove the TAN wire from the horn. If the horn continues to beep away, the horn is faulty.

If the horn suddenly stops beeping, then one of the sensors at the engine is shorted or the TAN wire is grounded somewhere. With the horn beeping, start disconnecting the TAN wire from the sensors... when the beeping stops, you've found the offending sensor.

The compression appears okay to me.

The timing linkage popping out problem... Usually the plastic retainer assemblies are worn and require replacing (both assemblies). But I have come across engines that have had a main bearing or flywheel problem, in which case the flywheel can be checked visually but the main bearings may be harder to close in on... try moving the flywheel back and forth (really lean on it) to check the play. A very small bit is normal but if you can move it say 1/6" of a inch or so... that would create a problem.

Stiff throttle: If it's still stiff when disconnected from the engine, then obviously the cable is okay... check on that.

Sluggish out of the hole: This could be the timer base sticking or somehow being forced to stay in the retard position rather then to be advanced before the throttle butterflies start to open.... could be a fouled carburetor or having the butterflies opening too soon in relation to the timing.

The butterflies should just start to open when the scribe mark on the metal cam is dead center of and touching the throttle cam roller.

I've tried to search thru the above, looking for mention of the proper spark to no avail... with the spark plugs removed, the spark should jump a 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame... a real SNAP! Does it? Note that using s/plugs to check the spark is a waste of time. The 7/16" gap is important. No tester?... build the following.

(Spark Tester - Home Made)
(J. Reeves)

You can use a medium size philips screwdriver inserted into the spark plug boot spring connector, then hold the screwdriver shank approximately 7/16" away from the block to check the spark or build the following:

A spark tester can be made with a piece of 1x4 or 1x6, drive a few finishing nails through it, then bend the pointed ends at a right angle. You can then adjust the gap by simply twisting the nail(s). Solder a spark plug wire to one which you can connect to the spark plug boots, and a ground wire of some kind to the other to connect to the powerhead somewhere. Use small alligator clips on the other end of the wires to connect to ground and to the spark plug connector that exists inside of the rubber plug boot.

Using the above, one could easily build a spark tester whereas they could connect 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinders all at one time. The ground nail being straight up, the others being bent, aimed at the ground nail. A typical 4 cylinder tester follows:


..........X1..........X2

.................X..(grd)

..........X3..........X4

Let us know what you find.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

I went and picked up the boat on my lunch break. I will say that after talking the the owner he does sound very convincing and he was a mechanic instructor for OMC in the 80's so you would think he knows what he's talking about. He said they did a compression test and a leak down test before and after and engine tune or an overnight decarb soak. His explanation is the leak down test shows what kind of vacuum will be created in the crankcase to ensure that the engine will run to it's full power. Here are the leakdown numbers they provided
1- 20% 2- 18% 3- 16% 4- 4- 18% 5-24% 6-20%
with the lower number being better. Quote was the usualy 4K rebuild with the works (the only way they would do it) every bearing, clip, paint, carb rebuild, new plugs etc.

I will be working through the list making the boat run as best I can and either enjoy it until it really needs a rebuild or sell it.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

+1 for no rebuild needed.
Convincing or not.

And the real factor that provides fuel to the cylinders is not vacuum, but pressure built up in the crankcase when the piston is on the downstroke.
If he said "vacuum", ehhhhhh......

EDIT:

Consider this: Worst case they might know exactly what is wrong with the motor, charge you for the rebuild, and correct the actual problem easily, charging you 4K plus. Cynical? Nah, not me!!!!!

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

I'm in agreement. If if there was a slight issue the time used during a leak down test vs real time when it's running I don't see an issue if the compression is in check, which it is. Thinking along the quick fix cars days I even asked him if a re-ring would fix that since he said it was directly related to the lower ring. He kinda looked at me like I was an a$s and said they don't do partials it's everything or nothing.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Well, there are only two rings. No oil control ring like a car....for example.
Also, a "re-ring" on a two stroke is just about equivalent to a complete rebuild. The work involved is substantial.
Piston fitment is crucial, and unless the pistons fit in the bore properly, just re-ringing it won't do the trick.

Just run it, pick away at the smaller problems, like clean carbs, spark quality, link and sync, etc, and THEN if you decide you need a re-build...OK.

Keep it well lubed and cool.....read the plugs to check for leanness....etc....should not hurt to run it that way.

EDIT!!!:::

I just looked up top and found it was a 1989 150 crossflow. You need more than 100psi, I am afraid.
It will run, but it should be making upwards of 140 psi. Just something to think about.

Re: Boat shop says I need a rebuild, not sure to beleive them.

Really is that common? as most of the 150XP compression searches I found were between 90 and 110. And the shop said the compression was fine.