1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Last year, we put the boat in the water at Easter. We made it about 50 yards and the alarm sounded. The motor ran hot and shut down. We got it home and realized there we burrow bees in it. Since then, we replaced the stator, the impeller, and head gaskets. We tried to crank it after installing the new stator...nothing. So we bought a cheap multi-meter. We checked the voltage on everything. It does not read DVA though. It seemed that the power pack was bad. So, bought one of those, still no spark. Lastly, we bought a timer base in a last resort. Still nothing. The rectifier looks like it may be burned, but the voltage is still within spec. We unhooked the kill wire, still nothing. It turns over, but no spark. New battery. Can anyone help?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Did the starter motor turn the flywheel?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Most of the ignition component tests require a special "peak-reading" voltmeter. Different from the common voltmeter most generally sold today. It is possible that your voltage readings don't properly compare to those which are stated in marine ignition troubleshooting guides. I'd double-check your voltmeter to insure that it is the correct type-or get the correct one. Also, I'd refer to the voltages at this marine ignition troubleshooting website: cdielectronics.com Keep in mind that this engine must crank between 200 and 250 rpm's in order to fire that ignition system. You can validate the key switch/control box harness by a simple test: disconnect the control box wiring harness at the engine end. Jump the starter with a set of automotive jumper cables-direct to the starter. When the starter cranks, you should see fire at the plugs. If you do, the problem is in the control box/harness. (make sure the engine does not start-as you have no way to shut it off...for test purposes only)

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

emdsapmgr said:

Most of the ignition component tests require a special "peak-reading" voltmeter. Different from the common voltmeter most generally sold today. It is possible that your voltage readings don't properly compare to those which are stated in marine ignition troubleshooting guides. I'd double-check your voltmeter to insure that it is the correct type-or get the correct one. Also, I'd refer to the voltages at this marine ignition troubleshooting website: cdielectronics.com Keep in mind that this engine must crank between 200 and 250 rpm's in order to fire that ignition system. You can validate the key switch/control box harness by a simple test: disconnect the control box wiring harness at the engine end. Jump the starter with a set of automotive jumper cables-direct to the starter. When the starter cranks, you should see fire at the plugs. If you do, the problem is in the control box/harness. (make sure the engine does not start-as you have no way to shut it off...for test purposes only)

Click to expand...

We tried this, stil nothing. If the rectifier is bad, will it cause it to get no fire?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Bosunsmate said:

Did the starter motor turn the flywheel?

Click to expand...

yes, it turns the flywheel. No spark out of any cylinder.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

if you've tried disconnecting the harness, then disconnect the rectifier from the terminal strip and test for spark.

with the rectifier disconnected, test it with a standard ohmmeter.
1) yellow-to ground and reverse the ohmmeter leads and test again.
2) yellow/grey-to-ground and reverse the ohmmeter leads and test again.
3) yellow-to-red and reverse the leads and test again.
4) yellow/grey-to-red. reverse the leads and test again
for each # above, you should get an open (infinite resistance) and a finite resistance with the opposite test lead arrangement.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

The rectifier has nothing to do with the ignition system. It's for charging the battery only. Did you disconnect the black/yellow wire coming directly out of the power pack ??

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

boobie said:

The rectifier has nothing to do with the ignition system. It's for charging the battery only. Did you disconnect the black/yellow wire coming directly out of the power pack ??

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I'm still trying to figure out the connection myself however disconnecting the rectifier is step-2 of the CDI troubleshooting sequence (Step1 is black/yellow wire)...I was able to get my spark back by disconnecting (and replacing) it.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

emdsapmgr said:

Most of the ignition component tests require a special "peak-reading" voltmeter. Different from the common voltmeter most generally sold today. It is possible that your voltage readings don't properly compare to those which are stated in marine ignition troubleshooting guides. I'd double-check your voltmeter to insure that it is the correct type-or get the correct one. Also, I'd refer to the voltages at this marine ignition troubleshooting website: cdielectronics.com Keep in mind that this engine must crank between 200 and 250 rpm's in order to fire that ignition system. You can validate the key switch/control box harness by a simple test: disconnect the control box wiring harness at the engine end. Jump the starter with a set of automotive jumper cables-direct to the starter. When the starter cranks, you should see fire at the plugs. If you do, the problem is in the control box/harness. (make sure the engine does not start-as you have no way to shut it off...for test purposes only)

Click to expand...

Bosunsmate said:

Did the starter motor turn the flywheel?

Click to expand...

tisdale1 said:

Last year, we put the boat in the water at Easter. We made it about 50 yards and the alarm sounded. The motor ran hot and shut down. We got it home and realized there we burrow bees in it. Since then, we replaced the stator, the impeller, and head gaskets. We tried to crank it after installing the new stator...nothing. So we bought a cheap multi-meter. We checked the voltage on everything. It does not read DVA though. It seemed that the power pack was bad. So, bought one of those, still no spark. Lastly, we bought a timer base in a last resort. Still nothing. The rectifier looks like it may be burned, but the voltage is still within spec. We unhooked the kill wire, still nothing. It turns over, but no spark. New battery. Can anyone help?

Click to expand...

BlueFin16 said:

if you've tried disconnecting the harness, then disconnect the rectifier from the terminal strip and test for spark.

with the rectifier disconnected, test it with a standard ohmmeter.
1) yellow-to ground and reverse the ohmmeter leads and test again.
2) yellow/grey-to-ground and reverse the ohmmeter leads and test again.
3) yellow-to-red and reverse the leads and test again.
4) yellow/grey-to-red. reverse the leads and test again
for each # above, you should get an open (infinite resistance) and a finite resistance with the opposite test lead arrangement.

Click to expand...

What exactly is this testing?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

We have tried all of that. We did everything in the CDI troubleshooting manual. The only difference is my meter does not have an adapter to read DVA resistance. All of the parts are brand new except for the coils and the rectifier. This is puzzling.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

We tried that. I know the rectifier is for charging the battery, but like you mentioned, it is the next step in the CDI troubleshooting guide. This is so frustrating!!!

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Best to use the KISS method... "Keep It Simple Stupid." Not meaning to insult your intelligence, it's just a common saying. What it means is to not over complicate things. Some of those manuals will drive you nuts with unneeded tests. That ignition system is just about the easiest system around to check out.

The Black/Yellow wire at the powerpack (Kill Circuit)... if you have spark with it disconnected, BUT no spark with it connected, the ignition switch is faulty... usually an intermittent short allowing a very slight voltage to be applied to that black/yellow wire which in time will destroy the powerpack.

To check the ignition switch (Sw Off)... Black/Yellow wire at the pack still disconnected... have a volt meter set so that it will register the smallest amount of voltage it may encounter. Connect the red meter lead to that black/yellow wire and the black meter lead to a powerhead ground. While observing the meter, turn the key to the ON (Not running) position. If the meter reads even a microvolt, the ignition switch is faulty... in which case replace it.

You've already replaced the Stator, Powerpack, and Timer base, so unless you may have purchased faulty parts, a need to test these with a ohm meter is unlikely.

You did say that you had the spark return by disconnecting the black/yellow wire then re-connecting it? That shouldn't have had happened... when you replaced that wire, you should have lost the spark again UNLESS voltage existed in that wire and your action caused it to disparate... that would still lead to a faulty ignition switch. Do the test above and let us know what you find.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

tisdale1 said:

We tried that. I know the rectifier is for charging the battery, but like you mentioned, it is the next step in the CDI troubleshooting guide. This is so frustrating!!!

Click to expand...

Agree!

DVA provides a voltage level. You're using the circuit to capture pulses and hold that peak voltage level for you to read on your standard multimeter.

You're peeling a big, smelly onion with these tests! If you dont' have one, get yourself a factory service manual that will give explanations as well as some schematics.

Some of the things that you're checking for: Are the charge coils (and appropriate flywheel magnets) providing enough voltage for your storage caps (inside of your powerpack) that once released (through an SCR in your powerpack) by the trigger coil/magnets (under your flywheel) to provide enough oomph on the ignition coil primary to generate the 30kV on the ignition coil secondary to make a spark. The pulse from the trigger coil is very short and DVA to "capture" it's peak voltage value.

and as boobie suggested, the rectifier is not mentioned once (there's a separate FW rectifier inside of the powerpack itself). Maybe someone else has some insight into why a bad rectifier influences in the ignition (besides bad cranking RPMs from an undercharged battery). Maybe the electromagnetic fields are changed if an alternator charge coil(s) are grounded through the external rectifier? Nothing jumps out at me from the schematics.

One last thing, since you changed your powerpack, it would be a good idea to go back and check your timing.

good luck and keep us posted!

EDIT: I see that Joe replied, you've got the right guy's attention!!

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

We did that test. Nothing. We disconnected the the entire switch box and jumped the motor off the starter, still no fire on any cylinder. I never said we got a spark by disconnecting and reconnecting any wires. I am stumped.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Well, with no spark, how do I check the timing?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

tisdale1 said:

I never said we got a spark by disconnecting and reconnecting any wires.

Click to expand...

Sorrry... That was an entry from another member, got a lot going on here.

The parts that you replaced (Stator, Powerpack, and Timer base), are these new parts, used parts that you absolutely know to be good, or just used parts that you assume to be good?

These above items are the main components of the ignition system and it is puzzling that you don't have spark. The following is a normal troubleshooting procedure that technicians with many years of experience would use if that engine was brought into the shop, everything being assembled such as a rig on the water being used and suddenly lost ignition.

1 - Remove the spark plugs so as to obtain the highest possible cranking speed. The rpms must be at least 300 rpm in order for the stator to provide the proper voltage to the powerpack capacitor.

2 - Disconnect the large RED electrical plug at the engine to eliminate the instrument wiring harness along with the ignition switch etc.

3 - Rig a spark tester whereas you can set a 7/16" gap for the spark to jump. The spark should jump that 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame... a real SNAP!

4 - Use a small jumper from the battery cable terminal of the starter solenoid to the small 3/8" nut terminal of the solenoid that engages the solenoid (not the 3/8" nut ground terminal). This cranks the engine without having major sparks flying about.

If you now have spark, the ignition switch or the instrument wiring harness is shorted.
If still no spark, leave the RED plug disconnected and................

5 - Remove the Black/Yellow wire from the powerpack, crank the engine over and test for spark again.

If you now have spark, the engine wiring harness is shorted. If still no spark... either one of those replaced components is faulty, not grounded properly, wired incorrectly, or the electric starter system is not cranking the engine over fast enough. This would leave you with the task of checking each individual component with instruments if everything is wired right.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Joe Reeves said:

Sorrry... That was an entry from another member, got a lot going on here.

The parts that you replaced (Stator, Powerpack, and Timer base), are these new parts, used parts that you absolutely know to be good, or just used parts that you assume to be good?

These above items are the main components of the ignition system and it is puzzling that you don't have spark. The following is a normal troubleshooting procedure that technicians with many years of experience would use if that engine was brought into the shop, everything being assembled such as a rig on the water being used and suddenly lost ignition.

1 - Remove the spark plugs so as to obtain the highest possible cranking speed. The rpms must be at least 300 rpm in order for the stator to provide the proper voltage to the powerpack capacitor.

2 - Disconnect the large RED electrical plug at the engine to eliminate the instrument wiring harness along with the ignition switch etc.

3 - Rig a spark tester whereas you can set a 7/16" gap for the spark to jump. The spark should jump that 7/16" gap with a strong blue lightning like flame... a real SNAP!

4 - Use a small jumper from the battery cable terminal of the starter solenoid to the small 3/8" nut terminal of the solenoid that engages the solenoid (not the 3/8" nut ground terminal). This cranks the engine without having major sparks flying about.

If you now have spark, the ignition switch or the instrument wiring harness is shorted.
If still no spark, leave the RED plug disconnected and................

5 - Remove the Black/Yellow wire from the powerpack, crank the engine over and test for spark again.

If you now have spark, the engine wiring harness is shorted. If still no spark... either one of those replaced components is faulty, not grounded properly, wired incorrectly, or the electric starter system is not cranking the engine over fast enough. This would leave you with the task of checking each individual component with instruments if everything is wired right.

Click to expand...

Yes, everything is new. They are CDI parts, though. Hope we did not get a faulty part. I don't have a spark tester, just a good ole fashion screwdriver. We unhooked everything yesterday again, and tried, nothing. Did all of these tests, and then some. I just don't know which part could be bad. I have no way to check DVA. I guess I'll have to buy an adapter.

The engine is turning fast enough, and it sounds like it has great compression. There is no burning or scarring inside the heads. I have traced every wire to find any exposed or burned area that could be grounding. Nothing.

The ohms reading on the stator is 743, which is high, 1 & 3 cylinders are getting a reading, and 3 & 4 are reading infinity. And I know the stator is putting out voltage. I think the timer base should read between 20-30 ohms. It is like 42. I can't remember the exact numbers. But I know the resistance is high on it too.

Everything on the top of the powerpack reads .02 ohms when tested with the ground wire touching a ground, the bottom of the pack has a different reading for each one. It's a headscratcher. Looks like this baby is going to have to visit a mechanic that knows more about these things then me. Thanks for all your help! I'll keep you posted.

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

Ok, we took the boat to the shop. The power pack was faulty. So, we ordered another on. Now we have another issue. The neutral switch is shot, and the part is obsolete. 0385659 OEM part no. Does anyone know where we can get this part, or will it run without it connected?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

tisdale1 said:

Ok, we took the boat to the shop. The power pack was faulty. So, we ordered another on. Now we have another issue. The neutral switch is shot, and the part is obsolete. 0385659 OEM part no. Does anyone know where we can get this part, or will it run without it connected?

Click to expand...

Do you think the new powerpack was faulty from the start?

The neutral switch is part of your starting circuit...it's designed to prevent the solenoid from being activated if your remote control is not in neutral. I would not bypass that switch; leaves the door wide-open for Murphy to walk right in and mess with you! How did you determine that it's faulty?

Re: 1976 Johnson 135 - no spark at all. Please help!!

BlueFin16 said:

Do you think the new powerpack was faulty from the start?

The neutral switch is part of your starting circuit...it's designed to prevent the solenoid from being activated if your remote control is not in neutral. I would not bypass that switch; leaves the door wide-open for Murphy to walk right in and mess with you! How did you determine that it's faulty?

Click to expand...

The shop put a new one on, and it worked fine. They then, put the one we purchased back on it, no spark. So apparently, it was faulty from the start. It also needed the carbs rebuilt, and a new starter solenoid. I don't want to bypass the switch, but I can not find that part anywhere.