Another Water in Cylinders Question

I have read many answers to "Water in Cylinders" questions, and most of the situations were semi-catastrophic. I don't think my situation is that bad, but I would appreciate some tips based on the following information and assumptions:

1) Inboard 2006 Vortec 5.7 L with closed-loop cooling system - only elbows see raw water.
2) Removed all plugs for compression check (that's how I found the water in the port cylinders).
3) Stern-down attitude of engine let water into #7, #5, and #3 (no water in #1).
4) Removed elbow. Appears raw water entered exhaust manifold through failed elbow gasket.
5) Removed exhaust manifold. Turned over engine. A little water sprayed out of exhaust ports, but did not gush out.
6) I turned the engine over until no water spray or vapor came out of exhaust ports.
7) Engine turned easily, so assume not enough water in cylinders to cause bent push rods.
8) No water made it past the pistons into the crankcase.

Here are a couple of questions:

1) Is there anything I could/should do before I replace the exhaust manifold and elbow? Like squirt some oil or "Seafoam" or something else into the cylinders through the exhaust ports and turn the engine over to lubricate and clean the cylinder walls?
2) Once I saw the water on the plugs, I did not continue with the compression check. Even if I don't get great compression readings, does it make sense to go ahead and install the plugs and try to run the engine on the chance that any possible valve issues due to a couple of weeks of exposure to brackish water will resolve under the heat, pressure, and mechanical action of a running engine?

Thanks!

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Here are a couple of questions:

1) Is there anything I could/should do before I replace the exhaust manifold and elbow? Like squirt some oil or "Seafoam" or something else into the cylinders through the exhaust ports and turn the engine over to lubricate and clean the cylinder walls?
2) Once I saw the water on the plugs, I did not continue with the compression check. Even if I don't get great compression readings, does it make sense to go ahead and install the plugs and try to run the engine on the chance that any possible valve issues due to a couple of weeks of exposure to brackish water will resolve under the heat, pressure, and mechanical action of a running engine?

Click to expand...

Ayuh,... Welcome Aboard,.... 1) sure anything will help, 'n can't hurt...

2) Pull the valve cover, 'n Look at the valve train as it's cranked over on the starter...
If everything's Movin',...
Button it up, 'n Light it....

You can continue yer compression test, after it's run abit...

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Bond-o said:

Ayuh,... Welcome Aboard,.... 1) sure anything will help, 'n can't hurt...

2) Pull the valve cover, 'n Look at the valve train as it's cranked over on the starter...
If everything's Movin',...
Button it up, 'n Light it....

You can continue yer compression test, after it's run abit...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the quick reply!

I hope I caught the problem before any real damage has been done.

Stone

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

If you did bend any of the connecting rods, it will most likely show up as low compression.

It would be worth running a cylinder leak test to see if the valves are in decent shape. If you have any cylinders with low compression and low leak, then that would probably be a bent connecting rod.

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

tpenfield said:

If you did bend any of the connecting rods, it will most likely show up as low compression.

It would be worth running a cylinder leak test to see if the valves are in decent shape. If you have any cylinders with low compression and low leak, then that would probably be a bent connecting rod.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Ted.

I'll add the cylinder leak test to my list. I want to catch all of the problems that are secondary to the cylinder water intrusion as soon as possible.

Stone

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

I performed a compression check on my port side cylinders first (because that's where the water intrusion happened and because it was a little easier to reach the spark plug holes without the exhaust manifold installed). From bow to stern, my port cylinders are numbered 7, 5, 3, and 1. I had good compression on #7 and #5 (150 psi). Cylinders #3 and #1 are "downstream" from the failed elbow gasket and they only showed 90 psi compression.

My follow-on question is about the same as one of my original questions (but now, I have confirmed a compression problem):

Does it make sense to reinstall a new port exhaust manifold and fire up the engine (with known low compression on #5 and #7) and see if the exhaust valves (which I assume are the cause of the low compression) get any corrosion beat off under high heat and mechanical action? Apparently, I am trying to avoid removing the head and taking it in for a valve reconditioning.

Thanks for bearing with me on this issue. . . I have a little common sense and 6 years "practice" on fixing this engine, but I am not a trained mechanic.

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

stoneSWH said:

I performed a compression check on my port side cylinders first (because that's where the water intrusion happened and because it was a little easier to reach the spark plug holes without the exhaust manifold installed). From bow to stern, my port cylinders are numbered 7, 5, 3, and 1. I had good compression on #7 and #5 (150 psi). Cylinders #3 and #1 are "downstream" from the failed elbow gasket and they only showed 90 psi compression.

My follow-on question is about the same as one of my original questions (but now, I have confirmed a compression problem):

Does it make sense to reinstall a new port exhaust manifold and fire up the engine (with known low compression on #5 and #7) and see if the exhaust valves (which I assume are the cause of the low compression) get any corrosion beat off under high heat and mechanical action? Apparently, I am trying to avoid removing the head and taking it in for a valve reconditioning.

Thanks for bearing with me on this issue. . . I have a little common sense and 6 years "practice" on fixing this engine, but I am not a trained mechanic.

Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... At this point I guess it's worth the shot,...

Did ya blow air into the cylinder at Tdc, 'n listen,..?? you should be able to Hear which valve or what is leakin' off yer compression...

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

If it was salt water that got into the cylinders, then there is probably some pitting on the valve seats that will not really improve from running the engine.

In your situation, based on what you have described, I would be more inclined to go with the cylinder leak test to see if the valves are leaking or not. As I mentioned, if there is low leak in the low compression cylinders, then it probably indicates bent connecting rods. If you get high leak at the valves, then you have a good idea of the problem.

So, you could get a better idea of things without installing a new exhaust manifold or removing the cylinder head., by doing a cylinder leak test.

I recommend the 'OTC 5609' leak tester and you will need a source of compressed air.

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

tpenfield said:

If it was salt water that got into the cylinders, then there is probably some pitting on the valve seats that will not really improve from running the engine.

In your situation, based on what you have described, I would be more inclined to go with the cylinder leak test to see if the valves are leaking or not. As I mentioned, if there is low leak in the low compression cylinders, then it probably indicates bent connecting rods. If you get high leak at the valves, then you have a good idea of the problem.

So, you could get a better idea of things without installing a new exhaust manifold or removing the cylinder head., by doing a cylinder leak test.

I recommend the and you will need a source of compressed air.

Click to expand...

The water intrusion was brackish (call it 80% fresh compared to the Gulf of Mexico), but salt is salt and who knows what corrosion may have occurred. Thanks for the 'OTC 5609' leak tester recommendation. As a scuba diver with unlimited compressed air available (and an adjustable regulator for the tools I run from my scuba tanks), the leak test may be my saving grace before removing the head. I already have a new exhaust manifold ready to install, so that is going to happen no matter what.

Thanks for the inputs!

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Unless you have port and starboard turned around, the port cylinders on a 5.7 Chevy engine are 1, 3, 5, 7 from bow to stern. If you meant from stern to bow you would have been right.

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Before you spend. Try adding Marvel Mystery oil into the cylinders(some use tranny fluid)let it set overnite.
Put it back together and run it, it's gonna smoke and blow. but will eventually the rings will release and the comp should go back up.
I've seen cylinders that needed a 2x4 and a 10# hammer to release. Then the oil and it came back.
The water would have to set in there for a while to do real damage.

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Silvertip said:

Unless you have port and starboard turned around, the port cylinders on a 5.7 Chevy engine are 1, 3, 5, 7 from bow to stern. If you meant from stern to bow you would have been right.

Click to expand...

Indeed. I don't know what possessed me to type the numbers in reverse (and I don't drink).

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

jerryjerry05 said:

Before you spend. Try adding Marvel Mystery oil into the cylinders(some use tranny fluid)let it set overnite.
Put it back together and run it, it's gonna smoke and blow. but will eventually the rings will release and the comp should go back up.
I've seen cylinders that needed a 2x4 and a 10# hammer to release. Then the oil and it came back.
The water would have to set in there for a while to do real damage.

Click to expand...

I've already ordered the 'OTC 5609' for the pressure checks. It was only $57, so it seems to be a small investment as this 2006 engine ages. I have used Marvel Mystery Oil in the past, and I have inserted it into my low compression cylinders for a nice soak. Although I originally found water in the exhaust manifold and a little water in cylinders #5 and #7, not a drop of water made it past the rings into the crank case, so I don't anticipate leakage there, but who knows? The pressure check should point me to the ultimate issues, but I am still hoping the duration of semi-salt water around the exhaust valves was not enough to do any real damage and that I have some deposits that will break up when the engine cranks and runs long enough at decent RPM to heat up to shake every thing loose.

Many thanks for the advice!

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

I spent a beautiful day installing a new exhaust manifold and elbow. To make a long story short, the engine cranked right up and sounded and felt great from idle to 4000 rpm. Unfortunately, under load, the engine runs so rough that I never took it over 1000 rpm.

Would 2 cylinders hitting on 90 psi, when the other cylinders are hitting near 150 psi exhibit this rough running under load? I'm ready to run some more Marvel Mystery Oil (or try any other suggestions before I pull the head for valve work). I'll try to narrow the diagnosis with the pressure checker when it arrives, but I have a bad feeling about the shape of the exhaust valves.

Any further input would be appreciated!

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Well, if you had a couple of bent connecting rods, making those 2 cylinders 90 psi, that would cause an imbalance. When I hydrolocked my 454 on the port side last year, I had a similar situation where some cylinders were low psi. Once I opened the engine up, I could see that those pistons were not traveling all the way to the top of the engine block . . . came about 1/2" short.

The thing is that you can have about 50% leak in the cylinders and still be down only about 20 psi on a compression test. The cylinders that you are looking at are down about 60 psi. . .

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

I got my 'OTC 5609' pressure checker in the mail yesterday. If I would have known what it consisted of, I could have put one together in the garage in about half an hour (I have a lot of spare gauges and fittings from my scuba hobby); anyway, it only cost $57.

I had to buy some boat parts today and I told my parts guy about my new pressure checker. He knows my engine better than I do, so among other tips he gave me, he said I could check for bent push rods without disturbing my engine's "delicate" balance. His tip was to count the turns when unscrewing the rocker arm nut until I could just barely move the rocker over to extract the push rod (I suggested a dab of white paint from a paint pen to line everything back up). If the rod isn't bent, I can replace it and tighten the nut back the correct number of turns (and line up the paint dab).

I ought to be able to zero in on the low compression culprit, and maybe even fix it without pulling the head. Apparently, I'm an optimist (and lazy).

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Here's the latest in case someone has anymore ideas.

I performed the leak down test and eliminated a couple of possibilities (which were low probability anyway):

1) No leak heard through the crankcase (no water made it into the crankcase, so I did not expect bad rings)
2) No leak into cooling system (did not expect bad head gasket or cracked block)

When I pulled the valve cover, there was a nice coating of chocolate milk goo (mostly in the cover itself, but some in the head). My educated guess is that the water intruded into the #5 and #7 cylinders and mixed with the oil above the rings which made the chocolate goo, but did not effect the rings. I cleaned everything I could reach.

3) Leak heard from carburetor in both cylinders (intake valve leak)
4) Leak heard from exhaust manifold from both cylinders (exhaust valve leak)

I pulled push rods and they were not bent (semi-good news), but now I know the problem is all in the valves.

I whacked the valve side of the rocker arms with a hammer and actually reduced the leakage a little, but the leakage is still enormous (I was afraid to hit the rocker arm too hard, but I have been told it can take a really hard impact). I changed the oil and added a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO). I think the valves are stuck in the valve guides and I hope there is a way to unstick them without pulling the head. I plan to run the engine some more with the new oil and MMO to see if things get unstuck. I'll do another compression check to check for overall improvement.

Does anyone have a trick to unstick valve stems (if that is the problem)? I really don't want to pull the head - It's not the cost of a valve job, it's pain of taking the top of the engine off.

Thanks!

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

stoneSWH said:

Here's the latest in case someone has anymore ideas.

I performed the leak down test and eliminated a couple of possibilities (which were low probability anyway):

1) No leak heard through the crankcase (no water made it into the crankcase, so I did not expect bad rings)
2) No leak into cooling system (did not expect bad head gasket or cracked block)

When I pulled the valve cover, there was a nice coating of chocolate milk goo (mostly in the cover itself, but some in the head). My educated guess is that the water intruded into the #5 and #7 cylinders and mixed with the oil above the rings which made the chocolate goo, but did not effect the rings. I cleaned everything I could reach.

3) Leak heard from carburetor in both cylinders (intake valve leak)
4) Leak heard from exhaust manifold from both cylinders (exhaust valve leak)

I pulled push rods and they were not bent (semi-good news), but now I know the problem is all in the valves.

I whacked the valve side of the rocker arms with a hammer and actually reduced the leakage a little, but the leakage is still enormous (I was afraid to hit the rocker arm too hard, but I have been told it can take a really hard impact). I changed the oil and added a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO). I think the valves are stuck in the valve guides and I hope there is a way to unstick them without pulling the head. I plan to run the engine some more with the new oil and MMO to see if things get unstuck. I'll do another compression check to check for overall improvement.

Does anyone have a trick to unstick valve stems (if that is the problem)? I really don't want to pull the head - It's not the cost of a valve job, it's pain of taking the top of the engine off.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Ayuh,.... The Goo ya found is just condensation, 'n nothin' more...
There's No path from the combustion cylinder, to the valve cover,...

By the sounds, the head needs to come off, 'n go to a machine shop for a rebuild...

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Bond-o said:

Ayuh,.... The Goo ya found is just condensation, 'n nothin' more...
There's No path from the combustion cylinder, to the valve cover,...

By the sounds, the head needs to come off, 'n go to a machine shop for a rebuild...

Click to expand...

Damn; so much for an easy fix.

Thanks!

Re: Another Water in Cylinders Question

Here is a continuation to the original post:

I pulled the port head (after removing everything that was in the way). I had the head rebuilt (4 new valves and all new springs).

I reinstalled the head (and put the rest of the top of the engine back on - intake manifold, carb, distributor, exhaust manifold). I left the elbow off, and left the valve cover off to adjust the valve train (which I did per spec).

I just wanted the engine to fire for 20 seconds, but nothing happened. I noticed zero exhaust from my port manifold. I checked the compression on #5 and #7 and the needle didn't even move. I assume there is no compression on the "newly rebuilt" port head at all.

What the heck did I do wrong (assuming the head was rebuilt correctly)? I reinstalled the head with a new gasket (same as the old gasket) and tightened the bolts (in order) to spec.

Thanks!