Why do so many older boats have no titles?

screwloose

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
38
First off, this is my first post, I've been reading here for a few years and finally registered.

I've been looking for an affordable boat project lately, and all I keep finding are boats without titles.
Getting a title for a boat with no history in NJ is a nightmare, if not impossible.
Why or how do so many boats end up not having titles?

I've been looking at a freshwater run mid 70's Starcraft on which the current owner replaced the deck and transom, and stripped the boat to bare aluminum but is giving up since he found he either can't get a title here or the process just costs to much. He claims the boat belonged to his uncle in another state that don't require titles or registration on boats. He got the boat after his uncle past away. He's an older gentleman himself, and I doubt if he'd have spent so much on the hull if it were stolen or something. He's only asking $1500, for the boat, and all the parts to finish the boat including a complete new interior, new mooring cover, new seats, all new upholstery, and all the trim. Its missing only the steering cable which he can't find. If I knew I could get a title, I'd jump on it but without a title its worth nothing.

It seems that just about every affordable aluminum boat on CL has no title.
I'm basically looking to spend as little as I have to for a boat that floats, I'll do the rest.
I'm looking for anything in the 15-18' range, preferably in aluminum but I'd take a glass boat if the hull is sound.

I just can't figure why its such a nightmare to get a title for a boat here. They can't all be stolen, and most that I've looked at have been sitting for decades unused. Many don't even have hull numbers on them.
 

1947dodge

Cadet
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
17
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

I believe older boats did not require or have titles just registration cards for them.. I had a 86 citation that had no title, hope this helps..
 

tpenfield

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
17,621
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Welcome to iBoats . . .

Older boats were new and in good use prior to many/most states having title laws in effect. Generally, a state will issue a title to the person with a current/last registration on file.

When I bought my sailboat (in 1997) the previous owner did not have a title and needed to get one issued (1981 boat). It took a few weeks, but it all worked out.

The problems typically arise when a non-titled boat changes hands without a title and the registered owner is long gone. Some states have processes for 'salvage' titles, which may apply to many of the older boats.
 

emoney

Commander
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
2,551
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

It's never "impossible" to get a title, it jus takes more effort than today's "give it to me now" folks are willing to invest. Take the HIN to your local Sherrif's Office and have them confirm it's not stolen. Most can do an "inspection" on the boat if you take it with you. Then, ask your DMV what's next. There's a way, I'm sure. Odds are, it's not going to cost thousands of $$ like folks believe. If nothing else, you'll find out for yourself.
 

jigngrub

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 19, 2011
Messages
8,155
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Back in the old days all you needed was a Bill of Sale to prove ownership.
 

04fxdwgi

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
754
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

First off, this is my first post, I've been reading here for a few years and finally registered.

I've been looking for an affordable boat project lately, and all I keep finding are boats without titles.
Getting a title for a boat with no history in NJ is a nightmare, if not impossible.
Why or how do so many boats end up not having titles?

I've been looking at a freshwater run mid 70's Starcraft on which the current owner replaced the deck and transom, and stripped the boat to bare aluminum but is giving up since he found he either can't get a title here or the process just costs to much. He claims the boat belonged to his uncle in another state that don't require titles or registration on boats. He got the boat after his uncle past away. He's an older gentleman himself, and I doubt if he'd have spent so much on the hull if it were stolen or something. He's only asking $1500, for the boat, and all the parts to finish the boat including a complete new interior, new mooring cover, new seats, all new upholstery, and all the trim. Its missing only the steering cable which he can't find. If I knew I could get a title, I'd jump on it but without a title its worth nothing.

It seems that just about every affordable aluminum boat on CL has no title.
I'm basically looking to spend as little as I have to for a boat that floats, I'll do the rest.
I'm looking for anything in the 15-18' range, preferably in aluminum but I'd take a glass boat if the hull is sound.

I just can't figure why its such a nightmare to get a title for a boat here. They can't all be stolen, and most that I've looked at have been sitting for decades unused. Many don't even have hull numbers on them.


Here is the NJ title web site. http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Vehicle/Boats.htm

Here is the link to apply for a title on a boat that hasn't been previously titled in NJ: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/Vehicles/OS-SS-27.pdf

Is boat currently registered in NJ or is coming from out of state? If coming from out of state, then the following applies:

Additional requirements for boats from out-of-state
If your boat isn't titled, you will have to show proof of ownership. You need to provide the same documents for titling and registration in addition to your driver license number and Social Security Number.

If it is titled, you will have to provide proof of ownership:

  • Notarized bill of sale
  • Notarizes statement of receipt from the seller
  • Valid registration or out-of-state title
 

Howard Sterndrive

Rear Admiral
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
4,603
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

I find lots of project hulls are registered and lots aren't. The asking price is usually the same, so I just make it one of my first questions and save the hassle.
always a buyers market for fixer upper boats
 

Silver Eagle

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
852
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

In Delaware where we live, you can't get a title on the boat just the trailer. It has to have wheels to be titled. My 2007 pontoon boat has no title .No sales tax on the boat just the trailer.
 

screwloose

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
38
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

In Delaware where we live, you can't get a title on the boat just the trailer. It has to have wheels to be titled. My 2007 pontoon boat has no title .No sales tax on the boat just the trailer.

Yeah but will DE let me register a boat with no paperwork as a NJ resident?
If so can I register it there and transfer it next year to NJ?
 

screwloose

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
38
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Here is the NJ title web site. http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Vehicle/Boats.htm

Here is the link to apply for a title on a boat that hasn't been previously titled in NJ: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/Vehicles/OS-SS-27.pdf

Is boat currently registered in NJ or is coming from out of state? If coming from out of state, then the following applies:

Additional requirements for boats from out-of-state
If your boat isn't titled, you will have to show proof of ownership. You need to provide the same documents for titling and registration in addition to your driver license number and Social Security Number.

If it is titled, you will have to provide proof of ownership:

  • Notarized bill of sale
  • Notarizes statement of receipt from the seller
  • Valid registration or out-of-state title

The boat has never been titled or registered and it came from Vermont.

It was last used in 1979, its been sitting in a garage here since the original owner passed away. The guy that owns says it belonged to his uncle, the current owner is retired himself and moving to FL, he just wants the thing gone. He'll go so far as to give me a written bill of sale but couldn't care less about getting it notarized. I've known the boat to sit where its at now for at least the past 17 years. I've driven by that place with the garage door open from time to time and its not moved till just recently. He sent the boat out to a local shop and had the deck and transom redone, he intended to make a center console out of it but stopped after he found NJ won't title it.

NJ wants a notarized bill of sale from the last registered owner. It was never registered and the last legal owner is dead.
Apparently where it was in Vermont was either on a private waterway or you didn't need any paperwork to run a boat back then. He's got pics of it docked on some creek in VT, it had no numbers on the bow even then. I believe the boat is a 1974 or 1975 Starcraft SS. He took it to the NJ Marine Police, had an NCIC check done, all was clear, he ran the required ads in the paper looking for any past owners to claim it, (worthless step since he knows the last owner is dead).
They want to see a paper trail, there is none. VT, NY, MA, PA, NJ, DE, and RI all came back negative on the VIN.
I even spoke to a buddy with the Marine Police, there is no record of this boat ever being on the books.
They won't accept the sellers receipt, and for the seller, who had no receipt or proof of ownership, they all but told him he's screwed. My take on the situation is that he and his uncle intended to use the boat here, but the uncle died soon after the boat came here. It just sat til a few years ago when the nephew, now retired decided to make it a project and use it.
I don't doubt the guys story, he's got too many old photos of the boat and his uncle, and he's got tear down pics of the whole process it underwent.
He also wouldn't have taken it to the State Police if the story was bogus.

Its a decent boat and I feel the price is fair for all that's included. If I had to take another boat to that point, and buy or pay for all the upholstery work he had done alone I'd have more than double what he's asking for the boat.
I tried offering less but I think he'd take a sledgehammer to it first before he took any more of a loss. I think he's at that point.

In NJ the boat is treated the same as a car when it comes to registration and title, but the trailer just gets registered, if you have no papers, they just call it homemade and issue a tag.
 

rheagler

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Messages
662
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

If the seller won't go to a notary, have the notary go to him. Many notarys will do side work.
 

vintageglass

Petty Officer 3rd Class
Joined
Nov 22, 2010
Messages
80
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

I've been through the same mess here in NJ, even a notarized bill of sale is useless if its not from the last registered owner. If they check and can't find a registration record in the same name, your at a dead end.
I had one that went so far as go to a judge and I was told that its up to me to prove a paper trail back to the last registered owner. They refuse to accept the fact that it may never have been registered. If its got a HIN there's a record of it somewhere is what they told me. I spent 3 years trying to get a title, only to go the title service route, which was also refused. I gave up on the boat and parted it out. NJ didn't make boat titles mandatory until 1987 or so, so there's a ton of boats here that have sat for longer than that with no titles. Most owners have no clue that they never had a title. If the boat is older, and has had multiple owners, and not been used or changed hands since that time, it may well never have had a title, but there is no process in place to get a title for one like that unless your either the last registered owner or have a notarized bill of sale from the last registered owner. I've been told over and over again that they will only issue a title to the person who last registered the boat. They will also not let you have that info. To me it says NJ don't want you to revive old boats.
I guess they would rather have a few thousand old boats all over just rotting in peoples yards.
 

screwloose

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
38
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

I tried again to get the seller to do a notarized bill of sale, he couldn't be bothered. He said he'd cut it up and junk it before he wasted the effort. So at this point I'm basically just going to walk away from it. With NJ laws being the way they are and on advice from the Marine Police, it can stay there. They basically told me that with no history or proof of ownership, there will never be a title issued. Both DMV and the police both said that there needs to be documented proof of ownership, he has none, and I'd have none if I bought it. They told me that even a notarized bill of sale is worthless if it's not from the last registered owner. So that tells me that if it was never registered, there's no way to prove any ownership of it. If there is a way, its not worth all the hassle to me. Another one will come along I guess. Its just hard to find one that's not either battered or corroded from saltwater use.
I more or less got the impression they don't want you to revive old boats here or they wouldn't make it so hard to get paperwork on them.
In an state with so many boats, I'd think they would have some system in place to register a boat like this.
Either way, I gave up let it be someone else's problem I guess.
 

tpenfield

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
17,621
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Yes, you are better off moving on . . . chances are the seller has been down the road of trying to title it and reached a 'dead end'. So, they are just trying to pass on the problem to someone else.
 

Chip Chester

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
109
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Hmmm... can you arrange for a buyer from a state without titles to buy it, then register it and then sell it to you? Is Tennessee or Kentucky one of those states? (I'm asking, 'cause I don't know...)

Chip
 

screwloose

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2012
Messages
38
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Hmmm... can you arrange for a buyer from a state without titles to buy it, then register it and then sell it to you? Is Tennessee or Kentucky one of those states? (I'm asking, 'cause I don't know...)

Chip

If it were that easy wouldn't everyone be doing it? There's a ton of boats here in this situation. I've looked at over 30 of them in the past year.
Are there states who will register a boat with no paperwork? Then the big IF is will NJ accept the info from the out of state owner?
Which states don't need titles or which states will register a boat that way? I'm sure I could buy the boat and have a buddy give me a notarized bill of sale. But in this state, that's worthless since he wouldn't have been the last registered owner. They want to see a past registration and notarized bill of sale from that same registered owner.
I do know you can register a trailer in NJ and not be a resident, years ago I moved to PA and they wouldn't let me transfer my then NJ trailer to PA. I had to go back to NJ and register it, even though I had a PA license and address then. The trailer was one which I had bought new in NJ 10 years prior, but had only a registration card for. PA wanted a title, NJ don't have trailer titles for trailers under a certain weight.
I don't know anyone in a state without boat titles right now. I'm open to suggestions that way.

The boat is nice but without a guaranteed way to get a title, I'm just not going to get involved.
Also, if someone in a non title state were to register it, then sell it, couldn't that person also have a personal property tax issue to deal with?
 

colbyt

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
824
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

I don't think Kentucky is one of them. A boat with no title must be owned for 5 years before you can legally apply for title. Actually a series of sworn affidavits (and notarized) establishing a 5 year chain of ownership and notarized bill sale will generally be enough. I forget what the exact no VIN (or hull serial number) requirements are

Edit: Boats coming in from out of state have a separate set of rules.
 

southkogs

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
14,785
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Hmmm... can you arrange for a buyer from a state without titles to buy it, then register it and then sell it to you? Is Tennessee or Kentucky one of those states? (I'm asking, 'cause I don't know...)
Tennessee is one of those states, but it wouldn't quite work out that way. You don't title a boat in TN, but you do register a boat - so the TWRA/County Clerk would require a bill of sale from the seller to you like nearly anywhere else.
 

TerryMSU

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
743
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

Here in Michigan, titles are optional on smaller boats UNLESS there is a loan secured by the boat. I have owned and registered several boats without ever being exposed to a title. My previous boat had a title on it at one time. The boat was de-titled when the owner paid the loan off. The boat I own now had a title on it and I bought it for cash. The first thing I did was de-title the boat. There is now no title associated with the boat. The resistration is the only proof of ownership associated with the boat now.

TerryMSU
 

Chip Chester

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
109
Re: Why do so many older boats have no titles?

TerryMSU, if you were to buy a boat from out of state, and finance it, would that create the need for you to obtain a title on it? And does the lien holder or the purchaser obtain that title?

Chip
 
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