Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

faithful · Jun 5, 2012

Hi everyone. I posted a few times last year. Just a refresher...we purchased a 20' Regal last summer that we found out had a rotten ski locker and soft spot in the floor. We were intending to restore it this spring but hubby decided that if we started it, we probably wouldn't get it finished in time for summer and we didn't want to be working on it in 100 degree weather. So the plan is to restore it this fall when we have more time and better weather.

We would like to use it with our boys a little this summer but want to fix (at least temporarily for the summer) the problem of water coming into the boat from under the rub rail. It doesn't just drip or trail in....it pours in! My husband wants to remove the rub rail and tighten the screws that hold the cap and hull together and/or seal it somehow. My question is.....what is the best way to fix this problem for this summer? I realize that I will probably get a lot of crap for trying to do a temporary fix :redface: but that's what he wants to do for now so I wanted to come here and get some suggestions because I am unsure of the best way to address this problem. The cap overlaps the hull (shoebox like) with screws going through the rub rail channel (sorry if that's the wrong terminology) and also the cap and hull and then the rub rail fits into the channel and over the screws.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Anissa

boatnut74 · Jun 5, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

Do you know what area of the boat the water is coming through the rubrail? Some pics would help also. I think taking the rubrail off and adding some 4200 or 5200 at the joint would fix the problem.

Yacht Dr. · Jun 5, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

You really should remove the RR and find out why so much water is coming in.

Its a day job ( sat honey do list thing ).

If he wants to do it right then why stop him lol

..

4200 on the hull deck seam..really work it up there then put your RR back on. ( may take next weekend to put the Insert in .. but hey

) .

YD.

faithful · Jun 5, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

boatnut74 said:
Do you know what area of the boat the water is coming through the rubrail? Some pics would help also. I think taking the rubrail off and adding some 4200 or 5200 at the joint would fix the problem.

Hi Nut! I remember talking to you last summer! Thanks for the reply. I don't think there is a specific area....it seems to be all around on both sides. I'm thinking that the screws have just come loose and there is no sealer in between (if there ever was any) so just a gap for water to get in. I would do the 4200 but not the 5200 since there is a chance that the cap might have to come off to do the restoration this fall and the 5200 is pretty much permanent. I still have all the pictures up on photobucket ...amwalker is username. The pic below shows where some caulking was missing but I filled that in with marine sealant before we took it out and water still came pouring in. You're still welcome to stop by and look if you get this far west.

Just be warned.... I might put ya to work!

glenn property of pam · Jun 5, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

something i found on my boat when i removed the rail was that it had been hit proberly while docking and the internal skin had flexed pulling the screws loose then it could not go back as the screws caught and held the skins apart. this caused a 1/2 inch gap about 16" long. from the outside it looked like a real small gap but once the rail was removed it was easy to see. looking down the side you could see that the hull near the rail was not smooth it looked like it had a little wave in it. if that was my only problem removing the rail and tightning the screws under the rail would have been a quick fix

faithful · Jun 5, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

Yacht Dr. said:
You really should remove the RR and find out why so much water is coming in.

Its a day job ( sat honey do list thing ).

If he wants to do it right then why stop him lol ..

4200 on the hull deck seam..really work it up there then put your RR back on. ( may take next weekend to put the Insert in .. but hey ) .

YD.

We do plan on taking the rub rail off....I just want to know what was the best way to fix it is once we get it off. Maybe I didn't word it very well... I'm not preventing him from fixing it the right way.....we just want to be able to get the cap off if we need to when we restore it this fall so I just wanted some suggestions with that in mind. From what I've read on here, the 5200 would not allow that very easily. How hard would it be to separate if we use the 4200? Believe me....if anyone wants to do it right, it's me!

Thanks for the reply!

faithful · Jun 5, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

glenn property of pam said:
something i found on my boat when i removed the rail was that it had been hit proberly while docking and the internal skin had flexed pulling the screws loose then it could not go back as the screws caught and held the skins apart. this caused a 1/2 inch gap about 16" long. from the outside it looked like a real small gap but once the rail was removed it was easy to see. looking down the side you could see that the hull near the rail was not smooth it looked like it had a little wave in it. if that was my only problem removing the rail and tightning the screws under the rail would have been a quick fix

Thanks for your reply Glenn. I'll have to take a closer look down the side on ours and see what it looks like. That's pretty much what I'm thinking is the problem with ours. I'll have to get in the boat and look at it from the inside also. I hope it's something that simple.

Woodonglass · Jun 6, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

I'd put her back on the water and have your husband take a look while under way and "SEE" where/why'and how the water is coming in via the rubrail. Doing this will surely give you the best idea on how to fix the problem. That's my 2? worth.

faithful · Jun 7, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

Woodonglass said:
I'd put her back on the water and have your husband take a look while under way and "SEE" where/why'and how the water is coming in via the rubrail. Doing this will surely give you the best idea on how to fix the problem. That's my 2? worth.

Thanks Woodonglass. I'll tell him we should try that first. I've put my hand on the seam (inside the boat) while on the water and felt it pouring in but didn't actually look.

Yacht Dr. · Jun 7, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

faithful said:
How hard would it be to separate if we use the 4200?

It shouldnt be too too hard because your not really bedding down the whole hull/deck flange with raw fresh glass ( you have some crap and stuff up in there ).

As soon as you remove the rub rail you will see Why your leaking

..

Remove some of the screws and clean out that flange as best as possible..then clean as best as possible again

..then put some 4200 in there and screw it back together ( NOT hard hard screw to deform the glass..just enough though ).

YD.

93bayliner1800 · Jun 7, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

I noticed on mine when I took the rub rail off it was only sealed on the bottom of the rub rail. A lot like the pic where you show some missing where it was sealed from the bottom. Seems like it would come into top of rub rail....then sit in there until it fills up and works its way in from the top. Just curious if yours is sealed any different. I know the way I fixed it when putting my cap back on....I glassed the entire seam inside so I would never have to worry about any water coming in or cap trying to separate. Of course mine has rivets instead of screws....and you cannot do this as that is not a temporary fix. And if I ever have to take my cap back off I will hate I did it! Lol

faithful · Jun 10, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

Sorry I haven't responded sooner. Had baseball stuff going on and my mom's 80th birthday.

ok..here are some new pictures. I took the rub rail off of half of the back to take a peek. If anyone sees anything that they want to comment on, please do. The screws I removed were different sizes. In the first picture, I sat them out in the order I took them out. Weird. Also, you can see there are cracks and chips around the screw holes.

So here are my many questions. About how many tubes (caulking gun size) do you think I will need? I found it on Amazon...is that the best place to get it? Do I want the fast cure or regular one? Do I just apply it up in the gap between that "shoebox" joint or do I apply it to the back of the rub rail channel also? Do I put some in the screw holes before I screw it back together or should I fill those with something else (husband thought maybe Marine Tex) or just leave them? What is the best thing to use to remove all the old caulking from the joint? Are the screws in the picture the right kind and should I use all the same size and if so, what size? And last question is...what should I use to seal under the rub rail after I'm done re-installing it? That's all I can think of for now. Thanks in advance!

Anissa

below pic is taken from under rub rail. The center section appears to be calking of some kind. Notice the gap on the right side between it and the top part. I assume the side of the boat looks the same and this is where the water is getting in when the calking on the under side of the rub rail fails.

avpaulb · Jun 10, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

After what I ran into on my project tonight (and the last few weeks), I feel obliged to drop my opinion in on this one. Listen to Woody and Yacht Dr. on this one. They are wise and all knowing.

I've been digging into my 43 year old boat over the last two months, and after having it in the rain a bit tonight, I was able to actually witness water leaking into the hull from the rub-rail screw holes. For whatever reason, my RR had well over 400 screws in it, which surely didn't help.

My cap is attached with solid steel (probably 5200), which made it impossible to remove the entire thing.

Without question, find the leaks temporarily, seal with something reliable but temporary, then fix it permanently in the fall. The guys will guide you (or your hubby) great advice for a permanent fix down the road.

93bayliner1800 · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

That is interesting that you have wood on both sides of the cap. Mine is just fiberglass, but it is even thickness so it seals fairly tight. I would believe you would definitely have to seal in between where the two sections of cap come together as I can see different thickness in the two. I would clean and seal with 4200 in between to cap pieces where there is a gap. It seems like that would solve problem.

Yacht Dr. · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

93bayliner1800 said:
That is interesting that you have wood on both sides of the cap.

I dont see wood

.. Its a macro pic with glass and caulk I think ..

Thank you for the updated pics

..

So you took off your Rubrail .. ok.. those other screws are for your Hull/Deck joint ( the place where the water is coming in ).

Need to take them Hull/deck screws out too. But FIRST take a hand screwdriver and see if each screw Can be tightened any more too see if they are Stripped out or even worked out over time. Mark the ones stripped out ( If applicable ) and relocate the screw(s) with a pilot drill bit and counter sink bit. See if the New screw holds as you go. Do this Now because when your gonna go back to rescrewing your flange you dont want any kinks in the process

.

Remove the old caulk and clean out your joint with a putty knife or something like that ( I have a cool tool that I made from an old Beefy kitchen butter knife that I bent and Sharpened ; ( Hint Hint ).

After its all dug out and cleaned up with some Acetone .. caulk and rescrew your Flange..then rescrew your Rubrail.

After your RR is on .. some like to silicone the top and bottom of it. I personally like to only silicone the Top and Not the bottom ( I like water getting out of any and all channel of my RR ).

** 2-3 carts to should be good for the 4200
** You want the Fast cure 3m 4200
** No need to apply silicone or 4200 on the backface of the RR. 4200 the Holes of EVERY screw hole you can see.
** Yes your screws for the RR should be typically the same ( you show #8x1" on average ). You might have them smaller screws because the have the same point location of the Hull/Deck screws ( so they basically screwed it into the RR and not the Hull )

GET NEW screws ! Dont use the old ones or your risking a snapped head of an old screw.

Hope everything goes well

..

YD.

93bayliner1800 · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

Ok....when I look at the pic right below the screws all laid out I assumed it was wood with the fiberglass because of the uneven thickness. Also because of the type of screws. Mine had machine screws not wood type threads. Thanks for the correction.

faithful · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

Yacht Dr. said:
Thank you for the updated pics ..

So you took off your Rubrail .. ok.. those other screws are for your Hull/Deck joint ( the place where the water is coming in ).

Need to take them Hull/deck screws out too. But FIRST take a hand screwdriver and see if each screw Can be tightened any more too see if they are Stripped out or even worked out over time. Mark the ones stripped out ( If applicable ) and relocate the screw(s) with a pilot drill bit and counter sink bit. See if the New screw holds as you go. Do this Now because when your gonna go back to rescrewing your flange you dont want any kinks in the process . That's great advice...thanks! I wouldn't have thought of that.

Remove the old caulk and clean out your joint with a putty knife or something like that ( I have a cool tool that I made from an old Beefy kitchen butter knife that I bent and Sharpened ; ( Hint Hint ). I think I can find one of those around here.

After its all dug out and cleaned up with some Acetone .. caulk and rescrew your Flange..then rescrew your Rubrail.

After your RR is on .. some like to silicone the top and bottom of it. I personally like to only silicone the Top and Not the bottom ( I like water getting out of any and all channel of my RR ). Interesting. The top of my rub rail is almost flush with the boat (I was thinking of sealing that as well anyway) but the bottom has quite a large gap between the two. Would you still leave it unsealed? Also, do you use just regular silicone or some other type of marine sealant? We used a marine sealant to seal up the 8" or so gap we found missing last year.

** 2-3 carts to should be good for the 4200 Sorry if this is a dumb question....by carts I assume you mean cartons and not tubes?!! I definitely would have underestimated that. How many tubes are in a carton?
** You want the Fast cure 3m 4200
** No need to apply silicone or 4200 on the backface of the RR. 4200 the Holes of EVERY screw hole you can see. Do we do this and then let it cure BEFORE we put the screws back in?
** Yes your screws for the RR should be typically the same ( you show #8x1" on average ). You might have them smaller screws because the have the same point location of the Hull/Deck screws ( so they basically screwed it into the RR and not the Hull ) So it's okay to replace the short ones with the 1"?

GET NEW screws ! Dont use the old ones or your risking a snapped head of an old screw. When i told hubby this piece of advice, he basically said.... good luck with that....the ones they make now days do the same thing. He just bought some to put a new flag holder up and one of the heads broke off right away.

Hope everything goes well .. Thanks!!!

YD.

Thanks for the time you take to reply and for all your great advice!!!!

faithful · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

avpaulb said:
After what I ran into on my project tonight (and the last few weeks), I feel obliged to drop my opinion in on this one. Listen to Woody and Yacht Dr. on this one. They are wise and all knowing. Yup...my ears are wide open when they speak!

I've been digging into my 43 year old boat over the last two months, and after having it in the rain a bit tonight, I was able to actually witness water leaking into the hull from the rub-rail screw holes. For whatever reason, my RR had well over 400 screws in it,Wow!!! which surely didn't help.

My cap is attached with solid steel (probably 5200), which made it impossible to remove the entire thing.

Without question, find the leaks temporarily, seal with something reliable but temporary, then fix it permanently in the fall. The guys will guide you (or your hubby) great advice for a permanent fix down the road.

Thanks avpaulb!

faithful · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

93bayliner1800 said:
Just curious if yours is sealed any different. I know the way I fixed it when putting my cap back on....I glassed the entire seam inside so I would never have to worry about any water coming in or cap trying to separate. Of course mine has rivets instead of screws....and you cannot do this as that is not a temporary fix. And if I ever have to take my cap back off I will hate I did it! Lol

Nope...mine is only sealed from the bottom also. The top of the RR is flush with the boat but the bottom has the big gap that is filled with the caulk.I can see how water could get in from the top though with no caulking of any kind up there.

I hope you never ever ever have to take your cap back off!

I'd like to do the same to mine (glass it together) once we get it all fixed up right but I'm too scared to!:facepalm:

93bayliner1800 · Jun 11, 2012

Re: Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

LOL...yeah I believe it will be time for a new boat if I ever have to take the cap back off!!!!

Need help with rubrail/cap-hull joint letting water in.

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