97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

LilBluePill

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As you could decipher from the subject, my boat is in bad shape. My question however is fairly simple. We paid to have local boat repair shop replace the gimbal unit as the entire steering column had worn away and been freely moving in the drive. (Bear with me I am learning the terms and how things work as I go through this nightmare.) This was in February at the beginning of the season. We ran the boat this summer about 5-6 times normally a full day or so at a time. We decide to go to Table Rock in MO for vacation and it starts overheating the second day we are on the lake (first day ran great but very short run, maybe 45 minutes pulling a wakeboarder). A mechanic friend helped us to look into the thermostat, the seals on the lower unit and the water pump. All seemed to be fine and the seals and thermostat were replaced to again test the boat on the water. The boat still overheated and we pulled it off the water to take it to a local shop for help. They ran a compression test on #5 cylinder and it was at 25 psi with water visible in the cylinder. For the entire duration of our vacation, the boat was off the lake. We affectionately :) nicknamed her "the glorified swim platform" and then on the 900 mile trek home "trailer queen with a full tank of gas". Now we get it back to the shop that orginally did the repair. The damage list includes: a hole in the lower unit housing where the hose clamp (worm clamp) was placed at 6 o'clock rather than the manual specified 3 or 9 o'clock. The hose that they replaced when the Gimbal work was done was kinked and installed that way thus cutting off water supply to the engine. The hose was kinked with the unit all the way down, all the way up and the both to the left and the right. The engine then was opened up and between the 3rd and 5th cylinders the head gasket is burnt completely through. There is also a perfect hole in the casting between these cylinders where if the engine was assembled, a pencil could lie easily in the gap created by the compression or steam.<br /><br />Now onto the questions:<br />Has anyone seen this type of damage to a casting in this type of engine before? Is the cause known and if so what was it? How long do you estimate that it took to do something like this? Would having the engine starved of water create or accelerate this problem?<br />When installing the return water hose should the length be cut? How long should the installed hose be?<br />Does the alignment of the exhaust clamp matter? How, in the real world, should it be aligned? <br /><br />The engine is a 1997 Mercruiser 350 5.7L with 2 barrel carberators. Serial No. K165344. The drive is an Alpha 1. <br /><br />We have owned this boat for 3 years and not had any problem, until now besides the gimbal repair, and not until after this shop worked on it. They, of course, are denying responsibility for everything.<br /><br />Any opinion, answer, or suggestion shall be greatly appreciated. If I have not described something well or if anyone out there reading this has additional questions, please let me know and I will work to get it answered and answered correctly. I also have pictures of all the damage and would be glad to share if that would help. :confused:
 

tommays

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

f46bc380.jpg
<br /><br />if your talking about this hose from the drive that supplys water there is no reason for it to kink if its installed right <br /><br />the hose comes from merc in a bag and its the right lenth<br /><br />did the clamp cut a hole in the u-joint bellows ? i can see how it could cut through metal ?<br /><br /><br />tommays
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

I will post a link to the pictures this evening. The hose shown in your picture is the right one and I have a picture of the hose they supposedly used in the product bag next to my kinked hose (not on the lower unit but on a work bench). It states it is a 14" hose and the bag is not Merc but a different non-name brand, the part number is clear in the photo.<br /><br />The clamp punched a hole through the metal of the lower unit. In the pictures, you can see the clamp through the hole.<br /><br />The pictures will tell a million words-thanks for the help.
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

Here are the all inclusive pictures-they show the damage to the head and the lower unit. The kinked hose pictures were taken by a friend and I will have to scan them tomorrow. In the one photo you can see the new hose in the package and the hose removed from my boat next to it-showing the kink to the right of the stamped number.<br /><br /> http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ldkoons/detail?.dir=/193f&.dnm=6016.jpg&.src=ph&.tok=phRImiDBDTaVAZBE <br /><br /><br />Just copy and paste the link in a new window. Thanks again for any and all help.
 

rodbolt

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

not only was it running hot it was run with a blown head gasket a lot. the groove between the cylinders is from hot combustion gasses being blown through a bad head gasket. was not caused by a single minor overheat. the position of the exhasut clamp had nothing to do with that hole. most I see are positioned about there. cause its easy. but as the clamp,hose and gimbal housing all move together it cant wear into either. manual #14 just shows the clamp in the 3 0clock. on some units if its between 4 and 8 oclock the head of the clamp will hit the transom shield near the lower pivot and take the clamp off. looking at the carbon on the clamp I will bet that raw fuel was burning in the exhaust cavity and burned a hole from the inside. wont hurt much an can be easily welded if you wish. but somewhere along the line there was an overheat. without seeing the kinked line installed I cant say if the water tube had anything to do with it. the fact it ran several days for several hours at a time would preclude me to belive it was a problem. but as the head gasket fails it can force gasses into the cooling system and cause severe overheating. that groove took some hours to occur. not just on single overheat session. thats a blow out I have seen many times. it can be repaired but not knowing machine shop skills and labor rates in your area its hard to say if its worth it.
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

The temp gauge and the alarm only sounded the second day we were in Missouri. Never before did it overheat according to the gauge and we shut it down the minute it did on vacation. We took it out again to test the replacement of the seals in the lower unit and the thermostat but again it overheated and we removed it from the water. Take a look at the kinked hose pics and let me know what you think about that. There is also a picture of a smaller hose that was severed presumably during the repair as we inspected before it was taken in and everything was intact. The speedometer cable was also cut during the replacement of the gimbal ring. <br /><br />Rodbolt:<br />You don't believe that steam could have worn the hole in the head faster?<br />The shop that performed the gimbal repair is claiming that spacers should have been installed to prevent the lower unit from going down to far into the clamp. I have spoken with other dealerships and they have only heard of spacers used to keep the units from coming too far up into a swim deck. The shop stated that the spacers were at one time removed and that is the cause for the lower unit traveling too far down into the clamp. They have said that they measured the distance of travel down and it is the farthest they have ever seen on a setup such as this. My point remains that I took it to them as experts to redo the gimbal problem and if there were parts missing why weren't they caught at that time and replaced. They stated they did a total diagnostic of the engine-shouldn't they have also found the blown head at that time if a compression test was run?<br /><br />If fuel was is the lower unit and blew out the hole, wouldn't the metal be sheared around the edges on the outside? We found the metal from the hole on the inside of the cavity. Or would the water pressure have forced the metal back into the cavity once it broke out? <br /><br />How would I have known that I had a blown head gasket if the temp was reading fine all season? Could the kinked hose have caused the blown head gasket at the beginning of the season and then the damage finally surfaced now? What are the 'symptoms' of a blown gasket?<br /><br />Again I am a rookie at this and just trying not to get screwed-thanks for all
 

rbezdon

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

Some of the symptoms of a blown head gasket are a slightly rough idle, slight steam coming from the breather tubes, loss of acceleration, lower WOT rpm (considering sma load, prop etc) or generally lower power. This would be for a burn in the location you had. If the burn is in other locations other symptoms could exist such as oil burning "smoke" in the exhaust, and water in the oil. Occasionally there is a slight "popping" sound, a sound sililar but not as load as when an engine is run with a spark plug removed, especially during acceleration. I had a haed hagsket go this summer similar to yours but I caught it right away and I had NO head/block damage. I agree with Rodbolt, you had to have run this for quite a few hours with the bad gasket to burn the head and block that badly. I ran mine for a total of 40 minutes with this gasket:
rbezdon
<br />20 minutes to my house to analyze problem and 20 minutes to boat ramp to pull the boat for the repair. When my engine idled there was no sign of the problem other than a slight roughness to the idle I noticed, my passengers did not. I can tell you, rod's one of the best with a lot of SBC experience and he is likely correct.
 

tommays

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

i have to defer to rodbolts expert advise i can only say there is a problem with how the hose is installed which could have caused an overheat<br /><br />the hose bag is quicksilver which is a merc part its one of there brand names<br /><br />i really dont understand what happend with the rams to knock the hole in the houseing ? <br /><br />tommays
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

Thanks so much for all the info. I don't mean to be badgering, rude, or disrespectful--I came here for information because I don't understand and I appreciate ALL suggestions and assistance. Please don't take offense if I question an answer.<br /><br /> I have been talking with another local shop and fortunately I have pictures of the part numbers and such as the components were installed when they were on the boat. The kinked hose that was installed was the correct part number--one down. The kinked hose however was not fully installed over the nipple-therefore it kinked and starved the engine of water causing the damage. <br /><br />I mis-spoke before and those who looked at the pictures obviously know this--there is a hole in the bell housing not the lower unit--again my inexperience showing through. I am sorry. The local shop believes that a couple of items could have caused this and I have to investigate further. 1) the gimbal ring is the wrong part number, or 2) the gimbal ring was loose and slid down. They do not believe that the clamp alone being placed in that location could have caused the damage. <br /><br />I am still open to opinions if you disagree with what I have stated--please let me know.<br /><br />Ron- can you help me out with the acronyms: WOT, SMA, SBC
 

Fishermark

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

WOT = Wide Open throttle<br />SBC = Small Block Chevy<br />SMA = :confused: <br /><br />Ron will have to let us know! :cool:
 

tommays

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

WOT wide open throttel<br /><br />SBC small block chevy<br /><br />SMA ya got me<br /><br />these guys no the SBC better than me BUT i can see 1 piston is steam cleaned a LOT <br /><br />which had a good chance of happening when you overheated<br /><br />which means it was getting water for a while before it blew through the head gasket into the other cylinder<br /><br />at that point you had to running a while to carve the grove<br /> <br /><br />i still cant understand how they put the drive together to knock the hole in it ?<br /><br />tommays
 

rbezdon

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

sma was dyslexic fingers for same. My brain goes faster than my finfers can type. Happens quite frequently in my posts. I am used to typing email and microsoft word which fixes these kind of issues before sending. I gues I have just gotten lazy and I don't always proof my typing. Sorry for the confusion. The other two acronyms are common the other guys posted what I mean't correctly.
 

rodbolt

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

while I feel your pain it does look like something was not installed correctly. I would like you to get me the part numbers for the trim in spacers on a Gen II cyl. I know they have some trim out limiters but I have never heard of a trim in limiter. something rubbed and rubbed very hard on the lower swivel pin/mount. its possible that the head gasket was blown due to low water flow over a kinked hose. the hose in the pic looks fine. wish ya had a pic of it kinked while installed. sounds like the second shop should have been your first. that hose is a mean beast to get on the transom nipple. but I will have to agree its either the wrong gimbal or the wrong installation method. sounds like shop one is dodging. keep all reciepts and have shop 2 cross check each part to insure it acually fits your seriel # transom assy. if the trim spacers actually exist they should have noticed it at reassembly. I dont think the hose clamp was a problem. usually it will push it off first. there is a fixture to check gimbal housing alighment to the shaft coupler. see if shop 2 can get mercruiser to allow them to use it. usually the tech rep will stop by.
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

I called the shop again and the part number for the Gimbal Ring was correct. All of the installed parts were Mercury. I then called Mercrusier and they have not had any recalls on this engine. They do not place spacers in the trim but the mfg would have. Again if they<br />were there when the boat came from the mfg then when were they removed and why only now do we have a problem. I have to call Rinker to get <br />the scoop on that. <br /> <br />Rod-I have placed a collage of pictures showing the installed hose, kinked, on the boat if you have not checked back in the album I posted<br />earlier. Shop 2 looked at the pics and stated it was clear that the hose was not installed all the way over the nipple. In hindsight, Shop<br />2 is the only place I will ever go again. They have been very good to me and have spent alot of time on the phone with me--I am fortunate to<br />have someone local like that on my side. I agree completely that they should have noticed the missing trim limiters at reassembly. There <br />have been no additional service bulletins from Mercrusier regarding the limiters. <br /><br />I was not able to get the part numbers you asked for yet but I will continue to work on it. The alignment to the shaft coupler is a good recommendation--Shop 2 has the part. I will get it checked once we meet to see tomorrow what shop 1 wants to cover or not. I am guessing not but at least I have checked the answers/reasons they gave and feel more comfortable agruing about cause and effect. The biggest concern now is if they do not cover anything, do I pull the boat from their shop while we are negotiating? Any thoughts? A legal service recommended going to the Better Business Bureau before seeking legal advise due to cost. The BBB can offer low cost mediation and assistance over the higher cost of legal council.
 

rodbolt

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

I looked and looked and cannot find any trim in spacers for an alpha. I can find some for trim out but none for in. ask shop one for the missing part number. no reason rinker would use a trim in limit since it does not matter to the hull. some boats with low swim platforms will use the trim out spacer to prevent contact with the lower to platform. so maybe I can learn something new today :) :)also have the shop check the position of the washer on the lower swivel pin as well as the clearence between the ring and the gimbal mount. if you access manual#14 look on page4B-56.
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

Rod<br />I can't locate manual #14--please provide more info on where I can find it.<br /><br />Thanks
 

LilBluePill

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

Visited shop 1 again today to get an answer on what they intend to cover or not. They again did not have an answer for any of the repairs/causation nor a price. When confronted with all I have learned, they stated that they would bring in their Mercury Service Tech Rep for a third unbiased (????) opinion. The main guy will be out for most of next week but hopefully after that we will meet the rep and shop 1. Went to shop 2 for an update and they stated that most likely the rep will be on the dealers side therefore I am requesting that Mercury send out a rep for me. We'll see how that goes. Shop 2 had the Manual #14 in its entirety and they allowed me to borrow it for the weekend.<br /><br />We looked over the pictures again and looked at a Merc Alpha Drive. Most of the damage boils down to a few basic problems that must be sorted out:<br />1) We know that the Gimbal ring was the correct part number but was it correct in the box from Merc (rare but has happened in the past)? Must check the distance on a new boat (same GenII drive) and my boat to determine if the distance from the boat to the pin holding the gimbal unit is the same. Shop 2 stated that this is most likely what caused the hole in the bell housing. Since the transom bracket was not replaced and it was gouged so badly, I cannot be sure that it did not happen before Shop 1 had it for the repair. I checked manual #14 page 4B-56 for the spacing issues. Shop 2 believes that everything should have been tight and that the rams were able to drop too low (too far back into the hull) causing the hole. About the spacers, shop 1 is still standing by that spacers are required for the rams. As far as I know, the rams on my boat were not taken apart to determine the existance of spacers. The spacer part number given to me by Shop 1 is 15768A3 from the 2005 merc parts list. The burn: they sell for $4.20 compared to a new bell housing. Shop 1 is still stating there should have been spacers and my position is that they should have noticed the trim BEFORE releasing the boat to me if there should have been spacers. Called Rinker and Rinker stated they do not install or recommend spacers for this year and boat. Merc customer service said the same. So Rod, again your position was correct about the trim in vs. trim out limiters.<br /><br />2) The kinked hose caused the engine to overheat and the head gasket to blow and the gouge in the casting of the block and head. The hose was not installed all the way onto the transom nipple and therefore slipped down and kinked. The lower unit descending too far did not cause the hose to kink. The small amount of time that the boat was run overheated caused the gasket and the hole in the casting--the position of most everyone that I have consulted is just that.<br /><br />Thanks again for everything--at least they sound willing to talk even though their personal lives matter (i.e. going on their vacation for a week) and my trip this weekend using the boat had to be cancelled, my planned trip to Powell in Oct most likely will not happen, etc...etc...etc...<br /><br />Any more suggestions are always welcome-Thanks and have a wonderful and safe holiday weekend!
 

rodbolt

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Re: 97 Mercruiser Head Gasket, Casting, Lower Unit Question

I still cannot find any spacers to limit trim in. make sure your clear about the difference of trim in or down and up or out when discussing trim limint spacers with tech services. looking at the cyl I cant see how a trim in spacer would fit and still allow the memory piston to function but I guess if ya custom made one its possible. so ask shop one for the spacer part number and the installation instructions and post it back. that groove WAS NOT created by a single overheat. it was a blown head gasket that was run many hours after it blew. trust me on that one I have done it myself on an old chevelle. ran about 2 weeks with it blown going back and forth to work. that coupled with seeing many others just like it. a kinked water hose could have reduced the supply to one side of the block and allowed the overheat to occur and ya did not notice it while running for some weeks.that area of the block has no water passage. it was caused by hot combustion gasses blasting between the cylinders and not steam. caould not have been steam cause aint no water there until it finnished blowing the gasket to a water passage. its rather a moot point now though. sounds like shop 2 has better training and may solve the transom assy problem. the engine may be a bit more difficult to prove. my truck, after 290K miles popped a head gasket for no apperant reason but it popped to the lower outside corner. had to remove #7 plug to unlock the motor to start it to make it home. replaced the gasket and its still chugging. its a tired v2500 87 chevy with a 5.7. it could be that I have seen one or two overheated chevy V8's in the past
 
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