Help please - first boat - I need a mentor

Hi there, I can really use some help. I am fixing up a 1972 Lund, 14 foot boat. I have done the trailer, the boat, the floor, the tires etc, and I am now at the electrical stage. If any of you could help me out, I would really appreciate it. I don't really know anything about wiring.

I have purchased a new battery, a bilge pump, a three way switch, some new lights, and that is pretty much where I am at.

Today I replaced the old bow light, and ran some wire to it, placed the wires on the terminals it worked. Good start. Other than that, all of the old wiring is still there, the old switches etc.

Here are some of my questions: - I plan to run bow light, stern light, bilge pump off of my battery ( and start the engine of course )

- what gauge of wire should I get to run my new electrical system? (the old wire is hidden in the bent aspect of the gunnel of the boat) - I assume I should run new wire, I have not even tried the old wires - should I buy like 50 feet of it or something? Should I leave the old there for any reason, or yank it out? It is pretty old.

- I don't really understand how I wire in my new, three way switch. I understand how to mount it to the dash, and I can McGiver a way to do that. I will cut out the old toggle switch and horn, and put the rectangular fused switch pannel there. DO I SEND THE MAIN POSITIVE LINE to the switch pannel as STEP ONE? If so, I am confused. How do I attach my main positive line, to this pannel? Do I unscrew something? The diagram does not help.

- The little washer that is placed right behind one of the screw holes? IS THAT A GROUND?

- Each fuse has a red line to each switch. Each switch has a black piece of wire, that is about three inches long on it. Is that where the positive line goes that I run back from my bilge for example? If so, does the negative from the battery go right to the bilge pump? Than the positive from the bilge goes to my switch??

- will the fuse in this pannel suffice for the safety fuse for the bilge?

- Do I have to wire it the light the same way as I state above for the bilge? Do I have to go, negative from the battery, to the light, positive from the light, back to the pannel switch? If so, does it matter what wire I use from the light at the positive and negative?

- my new SEACHOICE bilge pump, (without a float), seems to have waterproof wiring already on it, do I need to heat wrap it with the exra water proof wrapping??

- should I run the bilge hose out the side of the boat? I will have to drill a hole in the boat. How high above the water line should I drill the hole? How do I drill the hole? What tool?

- to anchor the bilge pump, if I make a piece that I screw to my new wood floor I put in, will that be OK, as long as it is flush with the floor of the boat?

- should I put the bilge in the center at the back?

Thanks so much to anyone who can take a little time to help.
Hill

Re: Help please - first boat - I need a mentor

First a few questions:
1) is this a tiller steer boat or does it have a console?
2) What engine is on this boat?
3) Are the lights you mention the NAV lights (bow and stern)?
4) You ran new wires to the lights. You said they work but how did you test them.
Now on to your questions
1) If you need to run new wires through the gunnel, tie the new wires to the old and pull it through.
2) What you need to know is that you normally run 1 red and 1 black #10 AWG wire from the battery to the fuse/breaker panel (which may include switches). The positive (red) wire should have a 20A breaker attached to the POS terminal of the battery. The red wire then connects to the other terminal on the breaker. The Black wire connects to the negative terminal on the battery. These two wires form the main feed for the entire boat and eliminates the need to run hot and ground wires all the way back to the battery.
3) From the switch/breaker/fuse panel 16 AWG wire is all you need for all the accessories.
4) You need an ON-OFF-ON switch (three or six terminals) for the NAV lights. If you use a three terminal switch you also need a diode that is available at Radio Shack for less than a buck. More about that later.
5) Motors and electronics are polarity sensitive. On lights, the metal shell of the bulb and therefore the metal shell of the socket is ground. The center terminal is POSITIVE.
6) The red wire from the battery connects to the positive buss on the switch/fuse panel which feeds one side of all the fuses or switches. The load (output) side of the switch feeds the POS wire of the light, motor or whatever accessory the switch controls.
7) The bilge pump sits on the bottom of the boat at the lowest point, not on the floor. It normally sits just forward of the transom near the drain plug in the transom. You route the drain hose over the transom or into a through-hull fitting mounted high and to the rear at the side of the boat. You drill a hole for the fitting with a hole saw and drill. The hole saw is available at any hardware or home improvement store.
8) I've included several diagrams below. Two of those are for the NAV lights. You need the three prosition switch for those because when under way or drifting, you need both the bow and stern lights on. When anchored ONLY the stern light must be on. This lets oncoming traffic know you are stationary.
9) Each switch has a fuse associated with it. The size of the fuse you use depends on the how much current the device draws. The bilge pump probably draws about 5 - 7 amps so a 10 amp fuse is fine. Lights draw much less to a 5 or 7.5A fuse is fine.
Here are some diagrams to digest.

Basic Wiring Diagram



More basic wiring



Nav Light Switch wiring - 6 termiinal switch



Three Terminal Nav Switch Wiring

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Thanks Bubba1235, I will read those.

Silvertip, thanks so much, this is awesome !!

Silvertip said:

First a few questions:
1) is this a tiller steer boat or does it have a console? THE BOAT HAS A CONSOLE
2) What engine is on this boat? I AM LOOKING AT A 40 MERC, ABOUT 15 YEARS OLD, THE BOAT PLATE, STATES THAT THE BOAT CAN TAKE UP TO A 45 HORSE
3) Are the lights you mention the NAV lights (bow and stern)? YES I INSTALLED NEW ONES, THE OLD ONES WERE BROKEN
4) You ran new wires to the lights. You said they work but how did you test them. I JUST ATTACHED, DIRECTLY FROM THE LIGHT, ONE WIRE TO THE BATTERY + AND ONE LEAD TO THE BATTERY - JUST TO MAKE SURE THEY WORKED, AND TO CONFIRM BATTERY CHARGE AS HE SALEMAN SAID
Now on to your questions


1) If you need to run new wires through the gunnel, tie the new wires to the old and pull it through. I DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT, I COULD ALWAYS HAVE A GROUP OF WIRES WITH THE STEARING WIRES ETC WRAPPED IN A WIRE TUBE - DO YOU RECOMMEND I TRY TO MAKE THE NEW WIRES IN THE GUNNEL? I GUESS I COULD TRY AND IF IT WORKS THEY WILL BE NEATLY TUCKED SAFE IN THE GUNNEL

2) What you need to know is that you normally run 1 red and 1 black #10 AWG wire from the battery to the fuse/breaker panel (which may include switches). The positive (red) wire should have a 20A breaker attached to the POS terminal of the battery. THE DIAGRAM REALLY HELPS, THANKS. SO I NEED TO BUY A CIRCUIT BREAKER, 20A, AND PUT IT WHERE IT IS IN THE DIAGRAM, I PRESUME THIS IS FOR SAFETY. NO PROBS, I CAN DO THAT. WHERE DO I PLACE IT? I UNDERSTAND IT HAS TO BE PRIOR TO THE SWITCHES, ON THE POSITIVE LINE, BUT DO I HIDE IT UNDER THE DASH, SCREWED TO THE BACK OF THE DASHBOARD, NEAR WHERE MY SWITCHES WILL GO, NEAR THE STEARING WHEEL?

NOW MY THREE WAY SWITCH HAS FUSES BUILT IN ON THE SAME LITTLE BOX AS THE SWITCHES, I THINK YOUR DIAGRAM HAS THE SAME THINGS, JUST A DIFFERENT DESIGN. I DON'T HAVE AN EASY TO FIND WAY TO FIND WHERE THE POSITIVE WIRES INTO THE THREE WAY SWITCH, I WILL ASK MY FRIEND WHO IS A MECHANIC

The red wire then connects to the other terminal on the breaker. The Black wire connects to the negative terminal on the battery. These two wires form the main feed for the entire boat and eliminates the need to run hot and ground wires all the way back to the battery. SO I ONLY RUN THESE TWO WIRES FROM THE BATTERY, AS PER YOUR DIAGRAM, FOR THE LIGHTS.

WHAT ABOUT THE BILGE PUMP, IS IT WIRED THE SAME WAY?

3) From the switch/breaker/fuse panel 16 AWG wire is all you need for all the accessories. OK, SO 16 AWG FOR ACCESSORIES AND 10 AWG FOR THE LINES FROM THE BATTERY TO MY THREE WAY SWITCH

MY SEACHOICE, FUSED SWITCH PANEL, THREE SWITCHES, I HOPE WILL BE ABLE TO TURN ON MY BILGE WITH ONE, AND SHOULD MY LIGHTS ALL BE ON ONE SWITCH, OR SHOULD THE BOW AND STERN BE ON DIFFERENT SWITCHES? IF I PUT THE BOW AND STERN LIGHTS ON THEIR OWN SWITCH, WILL IT MAKE MY LIFE EASIER, NOT NEEDING A DIODE ETC

4) You need an ON-OFF-ON switch (three or six terminals) for the NAV lights. If you use a three terminal switch you also need a diode that is available at Radio Shack for less than a buck. More about that later. I AM NOT SURE ABOUT WHAT YOU MEAN HERE, I HAVE LOOKED AT THE DIAGRAM, IF I WIRE THE BOW AND STERN TO THEIR OWN SWITCH, DO I NEED THIS STEP?

5) Motors and electronics are polarity sensitive. On lights, the metal shell of the bulb and therefore the metal shell of the socket is ground. The center terminal is POSITIVE.

6) The red wire from the battery connects to the positive buss on the switch/fuse panel which feeds one side of all the fuses or switches. THIS IS NOT LABLED, ON MY THREE WAY SWITCH, IT JUST SHOWS THE POSITIVE THREADING ALONG THE BOTTOM OF ALL THREE CYLINDRICAL FUSES. The load (output) side of the switch feeds the POS wire of the light, motor or whatever accessory the switch controls.

I AM MAKING PROGRESS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP.

7) The bilge pump sits on the bottom of the boat at the lowest point, not on the floor. It normally sits just forward of the transom near the drain plug in the transom. You route the drain hose over the transom or into a through-hull fitting mounted high and to the rear at the side of the boat. You drill a hole for the fitting with a hole saw and drill. The hole saw is available at any hardware or home improvement store. OK SOUNDS GOOD, BUT HOW CLOSE TO THE GUNNEL, HOW HIGH UP THE BOAT DO I DRILL THE HOLE? IS IT A FEW INCHES FROM THE VERY END OF THE BOAT? THERE IS A SHELF AT THE STERN, ORIGINAL WITH BOAT, MADE OF ALUMINUM, IT GOES ALL ALONG THE STERN, IT IS ABOUT HALF WAY BETWEEN THE BOTTOM OF THE BOAT AND THE GUNNEL, DO I DRILL A HOLE THROUGH THIS TOO?

8) I've included several diagrams below. Two of those are for the NAV lights. You need the three prosition switch for those because when under way or drifting, you need both the bow and stern lights on. When anchored ONLY the stern light must be on. This lets oncoming traffic know you are stationary. I ASKED ABOUT THIS ABOUT, WILL HAVING THE BOW BE ON ACCESSORY, AND THE STERN ONE, ON THEIR OWN SWITCH, WORK?

9) Each switch has a fuse associated with it. The size of the fuse you use depends on the how much current the device draws. The bilge pump probably draws about 5 - 7 amps so a 10 amp fuse is fine. Lights draw much less to a 5 or 7.5A fuse is fine. THE THREE WAY SWITCH I PURCHASED HAS A 15 AMP FUSE, IS THAT OK?

THIS IS AWESOME, I AM REALLY STARTING TO MAKE PROGRESS. I WISH I COULD FIND A PICTURE OF THE SWITCH I BOUGHT, SO I COULD SHOW YOU. MAYBE I WILL FIND A WAY TO DOWNLOAD A PIC.

THANKS, I WILL CONTINUE TO BE IN TOUCH.
HILL

Here are some diagrams to digest.

Basic Wiring Diagram

More basic wiring

Nav Light Switch wiring - 6 termiinal switch

Three Terminal Nav Switch Wiring

Click to expand...

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

The circuit breaker installs within six inches of the battery and it's job is to protect the run of wire between the battery and wherever your switches are. Fuses and breakers do not protect devices. They protect the wire that feeds those devices. If a fuse blows, either the device already has a problem and is junk or there is short in the feed to the device. Therefore a fuse or breaker cannot protect a device from damage it has already suffered. A "mechanic" is not generally the best source of information for electrical issues unless properly trained.

Look at the diagrams again and follow the arrows. It tells you exactly where 12 volts gets connected. It doesn't matter where the fuse is. 12 volts into the fuse. Out of the fuse to the device or the "line" (input) side of the switch. The from the "load" (output) side of the switch to the device. Ground from the device goes back to the negative post of the battery either directly or via the ground buss which is the #8 black wire I told you to run to the fuse or breaker panel or to a separate ground post.

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Thanks so much, I will study all of this and see how I do. I appreciate your help greatly,
Hill

Silvertip said:

The circuit breaker installs within six inches of the battery and it's job is to protect the run of wire between the battery and wherever your switches are. Fuses and breakers do not protect devices. They protect the wire that feeds those devices. If a fuse blows, either the device already has a problem and is junk or there is short in the feed to the device. Therefore a fuse or breaker cannot protect a device from damage it has already suffered. A "mechanic" is not generally the best source of information for electrical issues unless properly trained.

Look at the diagrams again and follow the arrows. It tells you exactly where 12 volts gets connected. It doesn't matter where the fuse is. 12 volts into the fuse. Out of the fuse to the device or the "line" (input) side of the switch. The from the "load" (output) side of the switch to the device. Ground from the device goes back to the negative post of the battery either directly or via the ground buss which is the #8 black wire I told you to run to the fuse or breaker panel or to a separate ground post.

Click to expand...

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Hi Hillsidetime, cant add much to Silvertips great advice but on the bilge pump issue, just some food for thought:

The shortest run of pipe to the outlet and the lowest vertical lift distance will give you the greatest pump efficiency.
Having said that make sure it is well above the waterline.The longer the pipe distance and greater the diam of the pipe the more water will be in the pipe when the pump runs dry and that will flow back into your bilge (normally no great issue as you have a bung plug to empty post recovery)
Try and match the pipe size to you pump capacity which the outlet hose size on the pump will be your guide.
I am told that using internally ribbed tube,whilst stronger,decreases the pumps efficiency so I try and use clear tubing, reinforced but with a smooth inner surface.
Before you drill (check twice drill once!!) place masking tape on inner and outer side of hull to prevent chips and drill from the outside in.
Use a waterproof sealer like sikaflex to both seal around the fitting and hole. Some recommend only tightening it to a tight finger tight first so you done squeeze out all the sikaflex then the day after tighten it all the way up, that way you have a flexible yet water proof seal. Make sure you use a marine grade hose clamp.
To mount the bilge pump I have used two methods successfully as you want to get it as close to the floor as possible. Method one is to use a SS plate that is bent to match your floor/transom angle,fix the plate to the inner transom (remember to use sikaflex or equiv) then fix the pump to the plate via SS bolt and nylon nut. If the bung plug is in the road this may not be practical.In which case mark the bolt positions on the floor and fix the mounting bolts directly to the floor using resin (let it set a bit first so it does not run everywhere) Then once the resin has set just drop the pump base plate on, run up the nuts and bobs your uncle.
Remember to run the bilge pump wires up out of the bilge as quickly as possible.
For lightweight wires for about $6 on amazon the other day I found some adhesive mounts (I add a bit of marine adhesive for good luck)that enable the zip fasteners to run through them then just bundle the wires up in front. Works for me as I dont have the legacy of areas where I can drill fix cable mounts.
PS if you are using cable shrink, dont mean to state the obvious but be careful as petrol fumes sitting in your bilge etc and naked flames dont mix !! If in doubt might pay to use liquid wire sealant.
Goodluck

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

My only comment- Use marine grade tinned wire for all of your electrical............ you are receiving the best advice around!!

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Re: Help please - first boat - thanks Silvertip

Thanks so much, I really appreciate the help.

I am now stuck on how to wire into my three way switch, I will go to an electrical repair shop and get advice on how it works. I have to purchase wire and a circuit breaker as well.

It seems the bilge pump has already thick, water proofing on the wire, it appears to not need further heat sealed coating.

Thanks so much guys,
Hill

Circuit breaker...

Circuit breaker...

Hi guys, I forgot to ask.

I now understand that I wire the circuit breaker on the red, positive line, out of the battery, six inches from the battery. Does the circuit breaker just sit on the battery, and remain inside the plastic battery cover, and than the wire heads out?

Hill

Re: Circuit breaker...

Re: Circuit breaker...

It needs to be installed so it doesn't get into contact with the NEGATIVE terminal of the battery. It would be secured to keep it from flopping around. Inside or outside the battery box is of no importance but it can be better protected from moisture inside the box. The diagrams I posted for your three way switch is all you need if its for the NAV lights. Three terminal or six terminal??????????????? If it's for something else, what?????

Re: Circuit breaker...

Re: Circuit breaker...

Hi Silvertip, thanks for you patience on this. I have figured it out, well not me. I took your advice and went to the local wiring guy fix it shop. Here is the key to my problem: the three way switch I purchased has no negative ground bus, so all the negative feeds will get put to one line and sent to the negative terminal of the breaker. The other problem was there was no clear positive bus, and the diagram on the back of the box was not help. Also, the positive bus came flat, and over one of the screw holes - so it looked like a ground. The electrician pulled that little hook up, sodered a piece of wire on for me, shrink wrapped the joint, and now it is all set. I have three hot lead coming from each switch, and I will wire as per your advice and drawings. I am going to put two lights in the bow, one in the stern, and the bilge. I am so excited, I am going to tackle this, this weekend. Thanks so much. I purchased the guage of wire as per your recommendations. I also got some crimps etc for the battery end.

The circuit breaker I purchased, on the bottom, one side says bat, and the other terminal says aux. So I trust that I wire the bat side first. Thanks for the info about the negative terminal, I will be sure to secure it in the battery box safely.

Thanks so much Silvertip. Oh yes, as I was trying my stern light, in my shop,to make sure it works, I found out what happens when the negative and positive lines touch each other, when coming directly from the battery

Hill

Silvertip said:

It needs to be installed so it doesn't get into contact with the NEGATIVE terminal of the battery. It would be secured to keep it from flopping around. Inside or outside the battery box is of no importance but it can be better protected from moisture inside the box. The diagrams I posted for your three way switch is all you need if its for the NAV lights. Three terminal or six terminal??????????????? If it's for something else, what?????

Click to expand...

Re: Circuit breaker...

Re: Circuit breaker...

whoa back! Switches DO NOT have a ground buss. Only a switch with a built in indicator light have a ground connecton. Again, look at the diagrams again. Do you see a ground connection?????? No you dont. There is also no negative terminal on a breaker, You really need to pay attention to the diagrams. Switches do not have positive busses - they have ONE "line" (input) connection and two "load" (output) connections. By using incorrect terminology you make it hard to keep you on track. Busses are a device that allows multiple but common connections. +12 volts and ground are examples.

Re: Circuit breaker...

Re: Circuit breaker...

Hi Sivertip,
thanks for the feedback. You are most correct, I ama having trouble with my terminology for sure. The one thing I have not mentioned is that my fuses are part of my switches, it is a combo device, that I will mount in my dash. I did not make that clear.

A few guys I have been talking with have said that instead of drilling a hole, a few inches down from the gunnel, to run the bilge hose, they clamp it over the gunnel instead. I would rather do a hole, and keep it neat and tidy.

Hill