Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

I inherited my grandparents property and my grandfather installed a small well way back in the day. Specs I got from him before he passed...

53' deep-shallow well. 2.5" casing. 1.25" inner pipe with a check foot valve on it. water starts at 9' from top of well.

I confirmed this two years ago when I dug it up and pulled the inner pipe out to replace the check valve at the bottom.

reason I did this was because I put a 1/2-hp jet pump for shallow wells on the well after the original pump went out three years ago.

The original pump was a bilge pump from a wwII submarine (my grandfather was a nuclear welder at the charleston shipyard before it closed lol). It was the kind that was belt driven by an electric motor and had leather pump seals inside. the leathers wore out so it would pump/prime so I pulled it apart and found a company online to remake them. Got them in and the new ones never seated right and I lost the extra seals I ordered so I removed it to put on the jet pump.

I cannot for the life of me get the jetpump to prime. I've fought it for the past two years trying to get it to prime on and off. It'll pull the water I put into it and then just suck air. It only pulls water for a couple of seconds too so I know its not sucking the well dry.

It could be because I have an airgap of 3" on the feed from the well to the pump but I thought it could compensate for that. what I mean is the line coming from the well comes to 2" under ground level, goes to the left approximately 4', then goes up 16", comes back over 12", then down 3", and over 6" to the jetpump...so basically the pump has to pull up and then back down again...This is mainly due to the way it had to be setup from the way the original pump was mounted.

I'm going to cut it all out and try to come straight over from the 16" rise so its level to the input on the pump and then fill with water and hope that holds a prime but are there any other things you guys can think of? maybe the motor is too small?

I'll get some pics this afternoon but here's a horrible diagram of how it's setup right now:
For the picture, imagine the sink is on the outer wall of the garage and the pump is underneath, right behind the sink through the garage wall is the tank with pressure switch @ 40psi, and the tank feeds the ouside sink and the faucet also on the outside wall at the front of the garage. The well head is about 3' to the backside of the sink about a foot from the garage wall...so yeah, my paint skills are horrible haha. But the piping is correct for the feed from the well to the pump.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

As long as the pipe to the foot valve is not leaking at a joint you should not be pulling in air.
When you prime the pump you remove the bung/pipe bolt from the top of intake side of the pump and fill it till it over flows, then wait till the water settles and repeat till it over flows again?
Our system, air charge 35psi, on at 45 psi off at 65psi +-
Does preasure tank need to be drain completly and re air charged??
The preasure switch is not burned out is it?? (contacts burnt)

Our jet pump has two lines that go into the well, one pulls while the other returns water to help lift it.
And you are pulling water up the right side of the foot valve (pipes are not backwards, check valve/ball and all at the foot valve??)

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

yeah, check valve is installed correctly and I've been priming it the way you say. the pump I have doesnt have a return that I can see. I'll take some pics this afternoon just in case I'm missing something.

the more I think about it the more I'm thinking its the dead rise from the feed the pump is not letting me completely fill the feed line with water and I've got a bunch of air that the pump cant compensate for...

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

If the well is 53' deep you need a jet pump not a shallow well pump (one pipe suction). Put a jet in bottom of well and use a 2 pipe system...you will need the right size of well head adapter and jet. This is a wash down well and is common in your area of SC so any local well supplier should be able to help you out.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

bigdee said:

If the well is 53' deep you need a jet pump not a shallow well pump (one pipe suction). Put a jet in bottom of well and use a 2 pipe system...you will need the right size of well head adapter and jet. This is a wash down well and is common in your area of SC so any local well supplier should be able to help you out.

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+1 ^^^

If your intake pipe is going down the full 53', you are not going to have any luck from a shallow well pump, as most of them are only happy pulling a rise of 20 or so feet at the most.

The other type of pump you could consider is an artesian well pump that lives inside the well. This will cost a good amount as the pump its self is expensive, and needs to have a run of wire sent to it down in the well. Once in place it would be a system with the least amount of hassle when set up, since it does not need to prime, and will work silently down inside the well.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

As bigdee said, you need a pump that has two lines going down the well. You maybe able to get the pump head conversion for the pump you have.

It does not really matter how deep your suction pipe is, what matters is the static water level inside that suction line. As jet pumps do not like to suck, the two line variety actually runs water in a loop (so to speak) running thru an educer (kind of a venturi or accelerator) to increase the suction on the main suction line to the well.

....and yes, you need to completely drain your pressure tank to properly charge it. I would highly recommend that you lower your pressure switch range down to 40/60. Those jet pumps, even running full flooded suction, work extra hard to achieve 65 psi. These pumps are a different animal that the submarine pump you had before.

I would back off the long stud on your pressure switch about 10 wrist turns with a socket on a driver handle. That will get you closer to the 40/60 setting. Get the educer kit or new pump, run the loop line down the well then prime it and fire it up. Once you get it running, adjust that big stud down until you get to 40/60. The short stud will raise only the high side, the tall stud will move the setting up or down, keeping whatever spread (on/off) you had. The ideal spread is 20 psi.

Once everything is working, I would cut the power, drain the tank and recheck your pre-charge pressure. At the 40/60 setting, 35psi is good if you have a not bladder (captive air style) tank. If you have a bladder tank, you want the precharge at 38 psi.

If you do have the non bladder tank, you will periodically have to repressurize your tank. Water, in contact with air under pressure will slowly dissolve your precharge air and send it slowly out your faucet. This is one of the reasons that a bladder tank is a better deal. They keep the air and water separated. Plus, in the event of a power outage and you end up draining your pressure tank, you do not lose your precharge.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

53' Depth - 9' Distance to the top = 44' of submerged pipe Would only be less that 3 gallons of water available to be pumped from the pipe not counting the supply below........... I am not surprised by your results.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

so basically you guys are all saying that I need to have a new well dug?

I dont see how two pipes could be run down a 2.5" casing.

I did save the submarine pump so maybe I should just try tearing it down again and ordering some more leather pistons for it...

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

stackz said:

so basically you guys are all saying that I need to have a new well dug?

I dont see how two pipes could be run down a 2.5" casing.

I did save the submarine pump so maybe I should just try tearing it down again and ordering some more leather pistons for it...

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I missed the 2.5" casing... So an artesian pump is out.
Sounds like you may be stuck working on the sub pump, or finding an equal replacement.
Just out of curiosity, is this well used for potable water, or is it strictly for dishes, and the outside faucet?

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

IF the old piston pump was able to pull water from the well the new jet should be able to also. The depth of the well is not the determining factor. It is the distance to the top of the water column.
A jet pump will NOT suck air. You must get all of the air out of the line. The raised portion is an air trap. You should get rid of it. If there are any leaks in the line allowing air to be sucked in you will not get water.
A piston pump has the advantage of being able to pump air. It will prime itself if pipes have no air leaks.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

joed said:

IF the old piston pump was able to pull water from the well the new jet should be able to also. The depth of the well is not the determining factor. It is the distance to the top of the water column.
A jet pump will NOT suck air. You must get all of the air out of the line. The raised portion is an air trap. You should get rid of it. If there are any leaks in the line allowing air to be sucked in you will not get water.
A piston pump has the advantage of being able to pump air. It will prime itself if pipes have no air leaks.

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thats what I was thinking I figure if that old pump could fill up the tank and keep pressure for lawn watering then this modern jet pump should definitely be able to do it as well. I'll have to cut that airgap out first and see where I stand from there. hell, I may just dig up everything and rerun it all properly first.

the old pump would hold prime and it would maybe sit days before getting used again and I know the couple cuts I did above ground are air tight.

RogersJetboat454 said:

I missed the 2.5" casing... So an artesian pump is out.
Sounds like you may be stuck working on the sub pump, or finding an equal replacement.
Just out of curiosity, is this well used for potable water, or is it strictly for dishes, and the outside faucet?

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its just for the outside fish cleaning sink and watering the lawn, etc. we have city water for the house, etc and even have the city water run out back. its just a wallet killer keeping the grass green in the 110+ summer temps with city water the past couple years since the well went down.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

stackz said:

its just for the outside fish cleaning sink and watering the lawn, etc. we have city water for the house, etc and even have the city water run out back. its just a wallet killer keeping the grass green in the 110+ summer temps with city water the past couple years since the well went down.

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Gotcha....
Streamlining the plumbing to the pump definitely sounds like a good idea. You never said this, but is the tank in the garage a bladder tank or just a holding tank?

At our cottage in Maine we have been using a dug well with a jet pump for decades. Our circumstances are a bit different, as the dug well is probably only about 15' deep, and the 90' run of 1" piping from the well to the camp drops about 10-15' down wards from the well to the pump (pump does not need to work too hard once the system is primed). It uses a standard foot valve at the well end, and a check valve right before the intake of the pump. We have on occasion pulled water out the well quicker than the ground water can replenish it, causing the pump to loose suction. What I find though is if there is still a charge in the bladder tank, it is able to back feed into the impeller to help keep the pump primed while the pump is trying to pull water from the well, and eventually it will recover without having to re-prime the intake line.

All that being said, since you have another source of pressurized water, it may help get the pump primed if you can somehow fill and pressurize the outgoing side of the pump especially if you have a bladder tank which will help maintain pressure.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

stackz said:

so basically you guys are all saying that I need to have a new well dug?

I dont see how two pipes could be run down a 2.5" casing.

I did save the submarine pump so maybe I should just try tearing it down again and ordering some more leather pistons for it...

Click to expand...

Yes you can run a 2 pipe jet system in your well,it is done all the time in the coastal plains of NC & SC. You drop one pipe down the well casing and then drop a smaller pipe inside that pipe. you use the space around the two as anothe pipe! Like I said ealier, contact some well people in your area or visit your local plumbing outlet supply house and they will hook you up. Here is a link that shows the type you need....http://www.myersresidential.com/ResidentialProduct_my_ws_jt_2inch_jet_packages.aspx I can tell you right now that a suction pump will not work....even though your water is 9' from the surface that is just the static water level and as soon as your pump tries to pump it will pull the water level below the limits of what a pump will suck. The old pump probably had a very low GPM flowrate which would be the only explanation why it worked. By the way, this stuff is fairly inexpesive

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

Im Sorry, But I Did Jump Ahead, i will put in my two cents though 2.25 casing= conventional submersible pumps are out of the question... water 9' from top of well a "Shallow Well Jet Pump" will pump it, they usually pump 20-25 feet, One Pipe, over that need to go to "Deep Well Jet" two pipe. Ive never installed the one pipe in the other like stated above, but have heard of them. I dont think you need it though. What brand of pump do you own??? Is the impeller end of the pump plastic, like sears or cast like GOULDs?? Anyway it sound like you have a simple air leak some where on the suction side of the pump to the water level. One trick I learned was to use a hand pump View attachment 132449 like pictured on the discharge end of the jet pump, with assistance have a person priming the pitcher pump while you pump it.... the pump is 100% positive displacement.... have the pump running while you do this... then once you obtain prime unscrew the pump and install the plug... try to do this while the pressure is low and you will keep the prime, try not to shut the pump off for fear you would lose prime. hope this helps, i have to go hang some drywall for a guy, i will be back

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

Rockmere1 said:

Im Sorry, But I Did Jump Ahead, i will put in my two cents though 2.25 casing= conventional submersible pumps are out of the question... water 9' from top of well a "Shallow Well Jet Pump" will pump it, they usually pump 20-25 feet, One Pipe, over that need to go to "Deep Well Jet" two pipe. Ive never installed the one pipe in the other like stated above, but have heard of them. I dont think you need it though. What brand of pump do you own??? Is the impeller end of the pump plastic, like sears or cast like GOULDs?? Anyway it sound like you have a simple air leak some where on the suction side of the pump to the water level. One trick I learned was to use a hand pump View attachment 132449 like pictured on the discharge end of the jet pump, with assistance have a person priming the pitcher pump while you pump it.... the pump is 100% positive displacement.... have the pump running while you do this... then once you obtain prime unscrew the pump and install the plug... try to do this while the pressure is low and you will keep the prime, try not to shut the pump off for fear you would lose prime. hope this helps, i have to go hang some drywall for a guy, i will be back

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With all due respect you would have to live in or be familiar with this area to know what type well he has.....they are plentiful and unique to this area and are usually used with a 2 pipe jet system. They do not work effecently with shallow well pumps since the 2" diameter reservoir pumps down too rapidly. A pitcher pump would work or a VERY low flow pump might, which is what he had originally.

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

Well (pun intended), you could go this route, it would get you in shape fast watering the lawn!!

http://bisonpumps.com/photos-hand-water-pumps.htm

Re: Anyone install or knowledgable about wells?

What type of fittings are on the loop? If one of them is a T fitting and can be opened up, that point could be used as the primer point to fill both the pump and the pipe.