Power sockets

MH Hawker · Jan 15, 2012

One of my project on a rebuild includes a 12 volt coffee pot for the admiral for over night trips. Their several pots around and the amp draws they range from 13 to 25 amps so began the hunt for stainless steel power sockets. What I thought should be a simple task is turning out to be and thing but. From US makers I am finding most do not give a amp rating so the only clue I have had is by wire size or fuse size. 16 ga =10 amp. 18 ga 8 amp and so on. and the only ones I am finding in a 15 to 20 amp range are from the UK or AUS. The pot am planning on using it rated at 13 amps. Am I over thinking this. The main feed is wired with 8 ga for up to 50 amps. Right now I am thinking on just using a 10 amp one wired with 12 ga and a 15 amp fuse. It seams a bit ridiculous to order one from the UK or AUS. Yes I know I can use a inverter I am looking at that also but it would be nice to have power port. Any thoughts would help.

Allbutwet · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Maybe check out some of the big Rv and camping suppliers.

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

I am a good electrical person.

Is there even such a thing as a CODE about what sockets to use with a 12 or 24 vdc coffee pot.

If not. I can tell you what to use, that will be safer than guessing.

Rich

M9.9 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

There are volts to amps calculators on the web. There is a big difference between drawing eg 15 amps at 12 volts DC and say 15 amps at 115 Volt/AC. Since plugs and sockets are usually refered to in 115 or 220 volts AC at 15+ amps, I'm not sure there is concern for using these types of plugs/sockets for 24 amp at 12 volt?.
Here is a link to 12 volt v. amps scale and how the wire gauge necessary depending on length is listed at eg 24 amps at 12 volt <5' at 18g. Hope it helps.
http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

I did a search on the USCG recreational boat site concerning electrical requirements. What a LOAD of crap. The site is a useless circle of NON COMMITALS. Went to the commerical boat builders electrical site. Less crapper. But the special conditions is now also grey areas. Basically they are falling back to the NEC, National Electrical Code. NEMA code for wires & currents.

Went to the www.cruiserforum.com Plenty of Cusinart 12vdc coffee pot failures very soon after using. Most people ....DID AGREE....that the Cigarett lighter outlets burned out after some use. Several did not like the long electric brewing time or the taste.

Hate to be a pooper. But. Make the stuff, all kinds, at home. Buy the REAL THERMOS VACUUM bottles & put it in them for the day.

Or get a big enough inverter / converter to convert the 12vdc to 120 vac...........Best way if you love your fresh coffee HOT. Buy or bring your favorite coffee maker on board. I would go for the 120 vac set up. So much better.

Rich

MH Hawker · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Yea Rich I have a long back ground in electric work and know the NEC very well and that's what I was going by and why I was concerned that I couldn't find the correct rated plug and yes I think I will go with a inverter. I appreciate it. I have a tendency to double what ever the expected use is just for safety.

Fireman431 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Any reason why you just wouldn't go with a 110v coffee maker and an inverter? Connect straight to the battery...

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

MH

Please reply.

Make VERY SURE that when you remove the ignition key......ALL POWER TO THE INVERTER IS OFF.
otherwise it very well could run your battery dead. Over days or weeks/ months.

Smell of HOT COFFEE first thing on the boat.

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Bubba

I am hoping he HARD wires the inverter DIRECTLY to a fuse or CB off the ignition switch under the dash area. Sure hope that switch can handlele the 12vdc amps of the inverter. He may need a power relay off the ignition switch just for the inverter.
It is a given that he will use a 120 vac outlet ,box & Cover.

He said he was a good electrican also.

Don S · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

cyclops2 said:
I am a good electrical person.

Make VERY SURE that when you remove the ignition key......ALL POWER TO THE INVERTER IS OFF.

I am hoping he HARD wires the inverter DIRECTLY to a fuse or CB off the ignition switch under the dash area.

Nothing should be hooked to the ignition except the ignition and the instruments. Especially not an inverter or any other thing that pulls 10 to 15 amps.

Inverters are also not wired to the boats fuse panel. They are wired and fused directly to the battery with proper sized wiring for the size inverter.

MH Hawker · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Make VERY SURE that when you remove the ignition key......ALL POWER TO THE INVERTER IS OFF.
otherwise it very well could run your battery dead. Over days or weeks/ months.

Its a bad idea to run any thing through boats ignition circuits other than what the motor manufactures allows. Yes I ran a seprate set of 8 ga wires from the battery disconnect switch that are good for 50 amps @ 12 volts, that are fused and at the monent I have stopped at this point

Are you talking about the Cigarette Lighter style of outlet/plug? If so a word of caution. most are rated for 20 amps and intermittent duty

Yes thats the issue I have ran Bubba into that type of plug is only rated at 5 to 10 amps and will fry and why I am now looking into inverters. Alto that brings up another problem it will be on a pontoon boat so it will be exposed to weather and damp conditions and to keep it safe I would have to be a GFI receptical in a NEMA 4 enclosure and I would guess a GFI would trip out a lot.

Any reason why you just wouldn't go with a 110v coffee maker and an inverter? Connect straight to the battery

I am concerened about having 120 V on a wet boat we get some very heavy due falls here and yes it can be turned on and off and why I was thinking 12 V would be better.

From what I am reading on inverters I am just not sure if its worth the trouble. And honestly right now I am thinking the admiral will just have to use the grill and heat up her water.

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Don

My Braun 10 cup kitchen pot is stamped as 120 vac @ 800 or 900 watts. It is hard to read the 8/9 number.
To be safe. Lets assume 900 watts. That is 7.5 amps. maximum. The inverters are very near 95 to 98 % efficient. So worst case pull is 7.7 to 8.0 amps total load. Ignition does not pull 7 amps. Very low current.
Why would you run a direct wire to the battery ? It would be in violation of USCG wiring lengths of a exposed " hot " wire. Fuses & breakers are supposed to protect a wire, NOT the load, up to the maximum current of the wire.
The Sierra switches are rated , igniton & accessory at 15 amps. Solonoid at 30 amps.
If you wire directly to the battery. You will not turn it off when you turn off the main battery switch.
A similar problem comes up with bilge pumps. To go to the battery post or the battery disconnect switch. Grey area in my opinion. Have all my battery disconnects turn off EVERYTHING. Pump,VHF,CB aux cell phone jack charger.
O B could be changed to a 4 position & then the inverter is on a 15 amp circuit not tied into the ignition circuit in any way. No coffee refills unless we are stopped.

I want anyone who works on the boat to be totally safe, when he switches the Main switch off.

What are your views?

Rich

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

WOW
I just read my postion. Have to be more carefull of posting so soon after my medications. The pot would pull 10 X mor current at 12 vdc or 75 amps.

Lets Go to something smaller in wattage,

Really sorry on the error.

Rich

Silvertip · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

So you are a good electronics person eh? Running an inverter is not a 1:1 relationship between input and output power. If you pull 10 amps @ 130 VAC OUT of an inverter you must put 100 amps DC INTO it. 12v vs 120 volts is a 10:1 ratio. Pulling that kind of current from an ignition switch will not only fry the switch but it will pop the breaker at the engine. If you don't believe this, here is a simple exercise for your to consider. Here is a 75 trouble light plugged into an 800 watt inverter with an ammeter in the INPUT side of the circuit. Note that the meter is reading 6.5 amps. 75 watts @ 120 volts AC = .625 amps. Note that there is a 10:1 ratio of input current vs output? If you ran a 7 or 8 amp coffee pot at 120 volts AC you will need 70 - 80 amps into that inverter. There is no free lunch here. If was as simple as you say, then we would all be powering our houses from a deep cycle battery.

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

Thank you Silvertip for correcting my error on wattages & current loads on the 12 vdc line.
Someone needs to, even if it is a honest mistake. Public postings need quick corrections to prevent accidents.

Thank you
Rich

Silvertip · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

I guess I just don't see the importance of being able to make a pot of coffee on a boat that you got onto shortly after leaving the cabin/house where unlimited amounts of 120 volts AC is available. There are some very good quality thermos bottles available. But then that's just me.

cyclops2 · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

I use the ancient Thermos bottles. Goodfor 8 hours easily.

Rich

MH Hawker · Jan 15, 2012

Re: Power sockets

We will be doing over night trips and sleeping on the boat so thier wont be 120 v around as stated in the origonal post.

and Bubba that would be for the 120 volt side of a inverter.

cyclops2 · Jan 16, 2012

Re: Power sockets

How different is coffee that has been brewed & allowed to completly cool off & then SLOWLY reheated to say 160 to 180 degrees. Would those small coiled heaters for car use be able to heat up WITHOUT causing boiling bubbles around the coil ?
I assume a bubbling boiling would " burn " the coffee ? Any body tried reheating with those coiled heaters ?

Rich

cyclops2 · Jan 16, 2012

Re: Power sockets

MH

You can not go by their wire size statements.
My 17,500 watt generator is equal to 72 amperes @ full load & 26,000 watts for a motor starting surge.
Suprise when I checked all screws & wire sizes. The main 3 leads from the generator are about #10 gauge, fine strands. Ran 5 degrees above room temperature at 74 amps continous for 5 minutes. So much for NEMA / NFPA / NEC & all others for short 2' lengths. Voltage drop over long lengths is a different matter.
Most of us BLINDLY go to the American Wire tables.

Rich

Power sockets

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