combating ethanol laced gas

Hello all, Merry Christmas 2011 ! i tried to enjoy the Newport Harbor Boat Parade this year, but had a little trouble... i have a 2006 bayliner 175 currently getting a Carb Rebuild because apparently the ethanol being used in the gas degrades the pumice bowl filter inside the fuel pump bowl and lets some of that gunk and sediment clog up the jets in the carb Despite the small micron filter on the carberator (at the fuel line inet of the carb). The boat starts, but would starve out when the throttle was pushed.


So what to do about this ? I'm trying to avoidanother $350 Carb Rebuild i appreciate the help Newport Beach, California

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

mikectm2 said:

Hello all, Merry Christmas 2011 ! i tried to enjoy the Newport Harbor Boat Parade this year, but had a little trouble... i have a 2006 bayliner 175 currently getting a Carb Rebuild because apparently the ethanol being used in the gas degrades the pumice bowl filter inside the fuel pump bowl and lets some of that gunk and sediment clog up the jets in the carb Despite the small micron filter on the carberator (at the fuel line inet of the carb). The boat starts, but would starve out when the throttle was pushed.


So what to do about this ? I'm trying to avoidanother $350 Carb Rebuild i appreciate the help Newport Beach, California

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Ayuh,.... Welcome again Mike,...

The Best tool fer that is adding a canister style fuel filter...
It won't cure the issue, as it ain't ethanol's Only issue...
But at least it traps most of the water, 'n other crud associated with the stuff...
You can mount it pretty much anywhere between the tank, 'n fuel pump, but most of the time, nearer the fuel pump is better,...
Just mount it so's it's Easily serviceable...

Good luck with the carb, 'n I hope it cures the issue...

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

Hi Excellent! The boat is currently at Hipp Marine in newport beach, california as you know they're a bayliner place. i wonder if they'll " slap " one of those in (if i ask ) ? then show me how to service it...

Are there any Ethanol resistant pumice bowl filters (inside fuel pump bowl ) from any Place on the 'Net ...that's gonna be better than the OEM stuff Hipp'll put in ? ((going off on that tangent, is Hipp only servicing the Carb and not replacing this decomposing filter in the fuel pump bowl )) the Hipp service guy didn't talk to me at all about the Fuel filter, Fuel Pump (or its bowl) or anything beside the CARB REBUILD

EDIT: reading about water separating filters ( aka fuel water separator ? ) is this different thing than your Canister style fuel filter ? if so, which do i use ? both ?


Can i get a LINK to the best one ?

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

Hi Excellent! The boat is currently at Hipp Marine in newport beach, california as you know they're a bayliner place. i wonder if they'll " slap " one of those in (if i ask ) ? then show me how to service it...

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Sure they will, it only takes money

Is there any Ethanol resistant Carb Rebuild KIT for this 3.0L Merc Engine from any Place on the 'Net ...that's gonna be better than the OEM stuff Hipp'll put in ?

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Ethanol is is not a problem with a 2006 carb.

Could you provide an Internet link to a Good canister style fuel filter for this 06 175 ? what about a "fuel water separator " ? i see this Similar Thread below called "fuel water separator almost worthless for ethanol laced gasoline? " Gonna Check It Out....

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Just because something is posted, doesn't make if fact. E-fuels do not cause carb rebuilds, and water has been getting into the fuel tanks of boats many years before Ethanol came out. Now, that's al people want to blame water on.

PS iboats sells parts, how do you think this huge free forum for you is paid for is paid for.

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

Ethanol attract's moisure from the air. Phisycally pulls it into the tank from the vent. That's why a water seperator is important. Make sure the vent is not pointing in a direction that rain or sea water can enter the tank. Also, make sure the fill cap has a good o-ring to seal out contaminants.

As far as the filter, if it'll make you feel better, put a paper element in instead of the porcelain.

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

Phisycally pulls it into the tank from the vent.

Click to expand...

Is there some sort of vacuum pump in the fuel tank?

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

Don S said:

Is there some sort of vacuum pump in the fuel tank?

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Ayuh,.... Sorta,.... Ethanol is hygroscopic....

With a short google search, this sums it up...
"Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it attracts and retains water. The lower the fuel level in the tank, the more likely you will experience water contamination. If the contamination is severe, a layer of alcohol/water can form at the bottom of the fuel tank. This is called phase separation, and can cause damage to the fuel tank and engine."

It's real,... I see alot of it...

water

water

I can't tell you how many hours have been spent studying this Thread and the replies. I'm still confused. So WATER clogged up my Carb ? I was under the initial impression (ie: original post ) that it was the Ethanol that degraded the filter in the Fuel Pump Bowl, and then that crap got fed to the Carb.


But that's not the case ?? then what happened ? my "2006 Carb" is Ethanol Proof ? with that statement you were stating that the Entire Fuel System is Ethanol Proof, correct?. Or did you mean exclusively the Carb, and not other fuel system components? LOl.

the boat would start, but would starve out when the throttle was pushed... according to previous iboat Threads, and "5 mercury and Sea Ray ((though mine's a bayliner)) mechanics" it was the "degrading of the fuel pump bowl filter from the Ethanol"

E-fuels do not cause Carb Rebuilds <---- i'm having a hard time with that one. .....unless it can be explained what occurred, i'm still going to assume it was the Ethanol that degraded the fuel pump bowl filter and fed it to the Jets in the carb


#2 what does the water do? The boat won't start? Clogs the Carb? <---i can't imagine water clogging something

Re: water

Re: water

Water doesn't clog. It corrodes! Has anybody taken a fuel sample from your tank? That's where your problem begins.
Did you in fact have them install the water seperator filter kit? That is going to be a big help.

Re: water

Re: water

one of the main issues is that 5% ethanol dissolves less water than 10% ethanol which dissolves less than 15%, etc... if you check the ethanol in pumps, you'll sometimes find over 15% in pumps labeled 10% (try it - it only takes a graduated cylinder and some distilled water...). since the solubility of water goes up rapidly with increasing ethanol, pumping gasoline with less ethanol than is in your tank, when your tank gas is saturated with water, will precipitate an ethanol rich water phase in the bottom of the tank, fuel filters, etc... There's a lot mroe to the story of course... and those above have been a great help in finding practical ways to deal with it.

Re: water

Re: water

Water in the fuel has been a problem with boats forever. Most have open systems, vented. Air is allowed in and out sometimes can condensate. Most here, i think, don't believe new fuels contribute much to it.
Our family under this roof has 5 vehicles and one boat, we drive a lot and have almost no options to buy non ethanol fuel, its 10% here currently. I maintain all of the engines and cant say Ive noticed any side effects yet. Four are fuel injected, (one TBI) two are carbs.
Knocking hard on wood desk!
I would not blame the ethanol fuel yet. Keep the tank topped off and add gas treatment/stabilizer if it will sit for long periods. Works for me. I'm sure others will have varying experiences.

P.S. I have never stored a boat in a marina for long periods, is that your case? I'm sure that would make condensation worse.
good luck!

Re: water

Re: water

wca_tim said:

one of the main issues is that 5% ethanol dissolves less water than 10% ethanol which dissolves less than 15%, etc... if you check the ethanol in pumps, you'll sometimes find over 15% in pumps labeled 10% (try it - it only takes a graduated cylinder and some distilled water...). since the solubility of water goes up rapidly with increasing ethanol, pumping gasoline with less ethanol than is in your tank, when your tank gas is saturated with water, will precipitate an ethanol rich water phase in the bottom of the tank, fuel filters, etc... There's a lot mroe to the story of course... and those above have been a great help in finding practical ways to deal with it.

Click to expand...

Tim was posting while i was typing... sounds like he understands the science behind it. I don't, just have never had any problems. I have of course been wrong before and love to learn new stuff.

Wow this is a great Forum, come back after just a bit and have a few responses! Affirmative, did have Hipp Marine in Newport Beach, CA install a Mercury water-seperating filter, a larger unit if i recall right. Or a unit intended for larger boats. My boat stock, didn't come with such unit, like i'm sure everyone knows.

I'm on a MacBook in the front room, and my Aunt on an iMac in the other room and is now shouting to me "Ok, a full fuel tank BUT, when you have a full tank of gas Does the gas still seperate does the gas still get old? "

I told her we'd have replies here in a few minutes.

let me share here, i was thinking that i'd always use Fresh Gas in the Boat (2006 Bayliner 175 ) Meaning, i'd get 4-5 gallons of gas from the local station in a 5 gallon Steel Gas Can... then show up at Newport Dunes, put 3-4 gallons in, then leave a gallon in the Gas Can, and put the Gas Can in the Boat. Then, attempt to 'burn' most the gas putting in the Harbor and so on, then, finish our boating, trailer the boat, and wash, and rinse-fresh-water through, etc, and then use a hand-pump designed for extracting fluids, to remove most all of any/all remaining gas. this gas would go back in the Gas Can, and then just poured into the car's tank. Then, 3 weeks later (next outting) repeat the same thing. That is, get 4-5 gallons of gas at local station right before-hand, etc ,etc

This'd leave no/not much old gas (to seperate and eat away ) but then, it would leave a pretty empty tank (meaning high risk of water coming into tank )

So what should i do ? I have a nice water-seperating filter now, and can utilize products such as Sta Bil, and if i must, i can run boat once a month.

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

I always keep the boat topped of during boating season. It almost never goes below 1/2 tank. I fill it and use Stabil for the off season. I am copying what my father always did as i was growing up, he always had a boat. I have always done this with the boats i have owned. I know of no tests or science behind it but he never had any water in fuel problems, nor do i. This is in Texas, boats are stored at the house in driveway or garage/shop.
Knock, Knock

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

What can you do? You protect the fuel system from whatever can bother it by using most any of the popular fuel system treatments like Stabil, SeaFoam, etc. And that mean in every tank of fuel -- not just once a year. Carb rebuilds are due to fuel system neglect which causes crud build up which clogs passages. Infrequent use of a boat, just like infrequent use of a car, can cause fuel system issues. Long term storage is also an issue if the fuel system is not protected. Ethanol blended fuel is simply not the demon fuel mechanics tend to blame nearly every malfunction on (bacause they are either uninformed or are trying to line their pockets with more of your money).

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

http://pure-gas.org/
Maybe a gas station near you that has ethanol free gas? 8 of them around me.

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

I've been running E-10 in my 1974 inboard for over a year now with StaBil. Over 100hrs and never had an issue yet!

Good Luck!

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

Mercury, or rather Brunswick, came out with an interesting article last August about Ethanol. Might be worth a read.
http://opcrace.com/PDF/Ethanol2.pdf

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

mikectm2 said:

let me share here, i was thinking that i'd always use Fresh Gas in the Boat (2006 Bayliner 175 ) Meaning, i'd get 4-5 gallons of gas from the local station in a 5 gallon Steel Gas Can... then show up at Newport Dunes, put 3-4 gallons in, then leave a gallon in the Gas Can, and put the Gas Can in the Boat. Then, attempt to 'burn' most the gas putting in the Harbor and so on, then, finish our boating, trailer the boat, and wash, and rinse-fresh-water through, etc, and then use a hand-pump designed for extracting fluids, to remove most all of any/all remaining gas. this gas would go back in the Gas Can, and then just poured into the car's tank. Then, 3 weeks later (next outting) repeat the same thing. That is, get 4-5 gallons of gas at local station right before-hand, etc ,etc

This'd leave no/not much old gas (to seperate and eat away ) but then, it would leave a pretty empty tank (meaning high risk of water coming into tank )

Click to expand...

Your second line is correct. You will never be able to extract all the fuel out of the tank, and leaving the boat with an empty tank will allow more air volume in the tank which could lead to condensation forming in the tank regardless of ethanol being present.

Your best action is to keep the tank as full as possible to minimize the volume of air in the tank. Un-treated fuel should still be relatively fresh even after a month of sitting, but a stabilizer like Stabil will give you piece of mind. It is important to keep in mind that nobody makes any kind of treatment that will eliminate or reverse any phase separation. Keeping the tank full, and using a good fuel water separator is your best defense against moisture in your fuel.

To address your question/response to Bond-o about your "2006 carb"; The entire fuel system on you boat theoretically has components which are happy living with fuel that contains up to 10% ethanol. By 2006 several states had already banned the use of MTBE (predecessor of ethanol) laced fuel because of the way it contaminates ground water. Major marine manufacturers saw the writing on the wall, and had started using fuel system components that would work with ethanol.

Re: combating ethanol laced gas

HI Took the boat to Hipp Marine again today just to have the gasket between the engine block and exhaust manifold replaced. This is commonly known i guess as the 'exhaust elbow thing'.

just looked over and read outloud to my aunt here every post (since yesterday now).

#1 i will look again for any E-10 free gas station. I did once already, and didn't find any.

#2 Will Keep tank as full as possible and use a treatment like Sta Bil. And use the boat as often-as-possible.

thanks for all the suggestions. i'll post later when i get it out of the shop. (jeff at Hipp Marine showed us the exhaust elbow and the slight evidence of slight gasket failure as we were picking up the boat the first time. For that first visit, i got a Carb Rebuild, a Mercury water-seperating filter, (and new boat cover). well looks like i gotta end this for now... Dinnner!