Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
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May 1, 2006
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443
1989 Chaparral 2100SX, 5.7 Merc MCM with Alpha One, gen 1 outdrive. Two seasons ago I pulled my engine and replaced the engine coupling. I had a shop replace my bellows and the gimbal bearing. I just didn't want to do that job again, so I paid someone to do it. So last year when I did my normal winterizing I must have caught the rubber seal that goes on the inside of the input housing when I put my outdrive back on. When I removed my outdrive yesterday to do my normal winterizing there was goop in the bellows. Water and grease, just this ugly grey goop. A part of the rubber seal was inside the bellows and the rest was still seated around the input housing. So basically it looks like last season I ran the boat with water in the bellows all season. My brand new gimbal bearing is grinding and obviously needs to be replaced again, bummer. In addition, when I went to drain the outdrive the same grey, ugly oil came out. So obviously somehow my outdrive was compromised. Everything ran fine last season, the last time I ran the boat a few weeks ago there were no issues. There were no metal flakes on the outdrive oil drain magnet. So I have a few questions.

How did water get in my outdrive?
What does it mean for my outdrive as far as longevity?
Does my outdrive need to be resealed?
What is entailed in resealing the outdrive and what is a typical cost associated with that?

I mean, I know the bellows and gimbal bearing need to be replace again now, but I'm concerned about my outdrive. So I'm a little bummed at my bad workmanship. Like so many of you I work really hard to keep my boat in great shape and try to do as much as I can to save money, but do things right. And now this time my hard work did not pay off and its got me questioning whether the maintenance is something I should keep doing myself. Thanks guys!
 

abrx7

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 6, 2005
Messages
81
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I had the same exact thing happen to my outdrive. It is very simple fix actually. It sounds like its an input shaft seal on the upper part of the drive. To replace this you have to remove the outdrive. There are 4 bolts on the top of the drive that have to be removed. Once those are removed you will see a big nut. Remove that then your input shaft should be able to come out. 9 out of 10 times you will probably have to replace that smaller input shaft as well. If you look at the shaft where it rubs on the shaft seal look to see if there are deep rub marks. Chances are its all mangled up (hence is why its leaking oil). Replace the seal and the input shaft and you'll be golden. I did mine for like 50 dollars.
 

abrx7

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

After the seal is replace and you have everything back together, I would pressure test the drive as well to make sure there are no more leaks anywhere else. When was the last time you had the water pump replaced in the lower.
 

ziggy

Admiral
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Jun 30, 2004
Messages
7,473
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

How did water get in my outdrive?
yep, the ft. seal of the drive is likely how the water got in the drive. the ft. seal keeps gear lub in but isn't designed to keep water out, since there shouldn't be any water to keep out.
What does it mean for my outdrive as far as longevity?
no metal shavings is good. however, i'd get the water out of the drive as soon as possible. water rust's metal parts. i don't know how to get all the water/lub mix out. maybe run a few gear lub changes? something to be sure the water is out.
Does my outdrive need to be resealed?
like mentioned above. the ft. seal will likely need replacing + the drive gear u joint yoke. do a pressure test to see if other seals are leaking.
What is entailed in resealing the outdrive and what is a typical cost associated with that?
someone else had a thread going on that. $700 + or - seemed to be in the ball park. a new sei drive is 1200, but ya already know that. if yer gonna do it your self. if ya don't have the proper tools you'll be up to a new sei by the time you acquire the right tools. probably.

along with your gimble brg ya might as well replace the u joints too. they don't like water either.

fwiw, when i had water intrusion into the bellows. gimble brg. u joints, ft. seal drive gear u joint yoke all got replaced. + the shift cable, bell housing shift shaft and shift lever. all were rusty due to water intrusion. i got lucky on my drive. i didn't have a bad leak and didn't get water intrusion into the drive.

might put a little glue on the large quad ring that the drive seals against prior to installing the drive when ya get that far. just to be sure it don't become dislodged when ya put the drive on the next time.....

bummer about your woes... and good luck in your adventure.
 

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
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Messages
443
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I did the impeller two seasons ago. So you think for sure it needs to be resealed? I only ask because somewhere I heard that the seals are meant to keep oil in and not necessarily water out and obviously it is not meant to be sitting in water. You are probably right, just dreading opening up my outdrive.
 

ziggy

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I did the impeller two seasons ago
imho, replace it. best i understand, 2 years is about the extent of the life of an alpha1 impeller. i do mine yearly and they always show signs of wear. if ya have an overheat, the impeller is always the first place to look... while it's not the easiest pm to do. it sure seems a lot better than an overheat.

IMG_3117.jpg

this is a one year old impeller. see the cracks starting on the inside of ea. blade? they always come out looking like this. + they've started to take a set and are curling.
So you think for sure it needs to be resealed?
no, ya need to pressure test it to find out if the seals are leaking. the ft. seal gets compromised because of the water intrusion. the water rusts the drive gear u joint yoke. the seal rides on this part. when the part gets rusty it ruins the seal and don't seal anymore.
IMG_2640.jpg

this one was out of my mc-1 drive after water intrusion. ya can see where the seal was riding at and how it might not seal a new seal. most certainly a groove where the seal rides at.
You are probably right, just dreading opening up my outdrive.
that's understandable. i was too, but i did it anyways. with the help of the oem service manual, iboats and my local dealer i got through it. and i'm just joe blow boater... no marine tech here.. but there's quite a few here on iboats... ;) they sure helped me a lot....
 

stonyloam

Vice Admiral
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Mar 13, 2009
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5,827
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

How did water get in my outdrive?

Been there done that LOL. So you got water into the driveshaft bellows, there are only two ways (aside from sinking) that it can get in there. The bellows themselves are leaking. Or the water is coming up from underneath (where there should be no water) past the sealing ring, that in your case is broken. If you look at the back of the bellhousing there are 3 chambers. The lower is the exhaust and is normally filled with water. Above that is the opening for the shift shaft lever and shift slide and should be dry. Above that is the driveshaft opening which should also be dry. If your sealing ring was compromised, water leaking into the middle chamber could seep past the ring into the bellows. The middle chamber is sealed in three places, the bellhousing gasket the shift cable fitting and the upper shift shaft seals (between the center and lower chambers). I would check for evidence of water, and consider replacing the upper shift shaft seals with the new style seals. This article talks about the seal http://www.sterndrives.com/merc/driveparts/GIMBAL HOUSING SQUARE_SQUARE UPPER SWIVEL SHAFT.html . Anyway I think that is how it all works :rolleyes:. Good luck.
 

abrx7

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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May 6, 2005
Messages
81
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I did the impeller two seasons ago. So you think for sure it needs to be resealed? I only ask because somewhere I heard that the seals are meant to keep oil in and not necessarily water out and obviously it is not meant to be sitting in water. You are probably right, just dreading opening up my outdrive.


I was just asking to see if the mechanic did the water pump and just forgot to put in a seal. Trust me you can do the work yourself. It sounds very intimidating to open up an Alpha 1 but believe me there is nothing to them. Do yourself the favor and save the money and do it yourself. Change the input shaft and seal as well as the water pump. I would be surprised if you spent over $150 for the parts.


I ordered all of my parts from E Basic Power: http://bpi.ebasicpower.com/index.php
 

ziggy

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

It sounds very intimidating to open up an Alpha 1 but believe me there is nothing to them
me personally, i wouldn't say that. you do it wrong and the drive won't be long lived imho.
to find out what's involved go here. look at #6 and read up on replacing the seal in question. see if you have the tools necessary to accomplish the job. a couple ya might not have would be a dial indicator type in/lb torque wrench. or maybe a press to press the brg.s back off if ya put them on to tight (assuming ya don't have the small spacer like i did). i replaced brgs too and that required me to check shimming with the proper merc. tool. imho, there are some obstacles that might come up for the shade tree marine tech, like me.
 

rad1026

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I have the tools except for the expansion wrench, no big deal. I have a bearing press. I just finished completely tearing down two broken jeep trannys and putting one back together. Which included removing bearings from input shafts and pressing new bearings on with correct shim spacing. The jeep tranny has worked perfectly for a year now. So I know its something I can do, just not looking forward to it. Guess I'll review the manual and dig in to it over the winter. I know the bellows are good, I just had all that done because I have done it before and I hate doing it. Well, I'll start with draining it and pressure testing. See if any of the other seals are compromised. Thanks guys, guess I was just looking for a shoulder to cry on.
 

abrx7

Petty Officer 3rd Class
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Messages
81
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I just used some half inch square stock as a bearing retainer wrench. It did what I needed. No need to change the bearings inside either unless they are making noise. All that's compromised is the seal and the yolk. I have 100+ hours on my job and no problems. Redneck yes but it works.

PS. If you can rebuild a jeep transmission then why are you so worried about this!!! This is preschool compared to a vehicle transmission.
 

rad1026

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Messages
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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

well, I feel better now. I guess I'll learn my lesson and be more careful when installing the outdrive. To Ziggy, I always set the seal in with some gasket seal and let it dry up before I install. I don't understand how it happened, but it did, and now I have to deal with it. Thanks!
 

Bt Doctur

Supreme Mariner
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Aug 29, 2004
Messages
19,093
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

you mention gasket seal when installing the ring, did you mean bellows adhesive or 3M weatherstip adhesive?
 

rad1026

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

hmm, the same stuff I use to hold the gasket and the water intake o ring on with, comes in a little can with a swab on the inside of the lid, yellow and sticky, I call it gasket seal, it might be something different.
 

Beefer

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

no, ya need to pressure test it to find out if the seals are leaking. the ft. seal gets compromised because of the water intrusion. the water rusts the drive gear u joint yoke. the seal rides on this part. when the part gets rusty it ruins the seal and don't seal anymore.
IMG_2640.jpg

this one was out of my mc-1 drive after water intrusion. ya can see where the seal was riding at and how it might not seal a new seal. most certainly a groove where the seal rides at.
that's understandable. i was too, but i did it anyways. with the help of the oem service manual, iboats and my local dealer i got through it. and i'm just joe blow boater... no marine tech here.. but there's quite a few here on iboats... ;) they sure helped me a lot....

Wanted to steal ziggy's picture, and add to what he said.

Mine looked just like that, and a replacement gear is spendy. There is a sleeve that my mechanic pressed onto it, trimmed on the metal lathe, and 'corrected' the leak all for $50. If the gears are worn, or the unit overall is in poor condition, then replace it if that's the cause. But if it's in good shape otherwise, you can sleeve it.
 

rad1026

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

yeah, some of you guys on here crack me up, no offense beefer, you are in Floria, I'm in freeking Albuquerque! Just kidding, I like it here, but its not the mecca for good boat mechanics or cheap parts that's for sure. Thanks for the info though. I'll get it apart and see where I go from there.
 

stonyloam

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5,827
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

a replacement gear is spendy.

NOW I know what you are talking about LOL. That is not a gear, it is a universal joint yoke (gear end). Good to know that it can be sleeved, I was wondering about that.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

yeah, some of you guys on here crack me up, no offense beefer, you are in Floria, I'm in freeking Albuquerque! Just kidding, I like it here, but its not the mecca for good boat mechanics or cheap parts that's for sure. Thanks for the info though. I'll get it apart and see where I go from there.

You want to try Australia...!!! :facepalm:

A GM timing cover that you guys can buy over the counter for $39 costs us $350, and a sump that is $102 in the US is over $700 here. Just the sump gasket which is $11 for you guys would have cost me $85....

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the threat, just had to get that off my chest...
 

CharlieB

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5,617
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

You want to try Australia...!!! :facepalm:

A GM timing cover that you guys can buy over the counter for $39 costs us $350, and a sump that is $102 in the US is over $700 here. Just the sump gasket which is $11 for you guys would have cost me $85....

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the threat, just had to get that off my chest...

Ouch!

Maybe we should we be exporting parts to you to mark up then split the profits!
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Ouch!

Maybe we should we be exporting parts to you to mark up then split the profits!

Great thought, but Mercury Australia have everybody so scared with 'there is no warranty' (not that there is anyway, just read my sad story!) that the idiots just fork out the coin and Mercury Australia are rubbing their hands together all the way to the bank....

I'm now buying parts on-line from GM or Jegs or Summit, any way to shaft Mercury Australia out of MY money... I have to wait 3-4 weeks but if I pre-plan well enough, I'll save enough money to buy a completely new engine. :D (new V6MPI here is over $22K, imported from US, including freight, duty and taxes is $12K. That prices the warranty at $10K...)

Later guys....... :D
 
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