humidity control

cfiegehen

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
30
HI, if this thread has been covered pleasse direct me there, but i couldnt find any answers...so, I will be living aboard over the winter in Toronto and having my carver 3207 shrink wrapped....could some seasoned boaters please tell me some ways and trick to keep the humidity under control....for example, do you use the shower on board? and cooking...do these cause problems or is it manageable....i do have shower options at the marina...thanks in advance
 

Chris1956

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Messages
27,158
Re: humidity control

You plan to live on the boat, after it is shrink wrapped? In Toronto? That does not sound feasible due to the supports necessary for the shrinkwrap supports, and the expected cold. Do you have suitable canvass instead? At least you can open that up for ventilation.

I hope you have a warm woman with you.
 

DuckHunterJon

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
1,082
Re: humidity control

I would think the shrink wrap would trap all the moisture in - including moisture from breathing. I've woke up in a tent that is soaked on the interior after a night in the cold. Seems you would have to either have a bunch of ventililation (and a bunch of coats!) or insulate the whole cover.

Please post some more details of your plans, I'm sure a few of us would be interested.
 

25thmustang

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
1,849
Re: humidity control

Shrinkwrapped on land? I have been to my boat a few times in the dead of winter, 2' of snow on the ground and can say it is miserable being there. I couldn't imagine living in that situation without a nice warm home to go to at the end of day.
 

Lakes84

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
253
Re: humidity control

I'm guessing he meant abroad? Ooops, OKAY, I read the rest of the post....sorry!

I did that in a camper in my younger days. I can't imagine doing it on a boat.....
Way too many things that could go wrong. I'm not one to be able help with this
one. Listen to the advice above. I think you'd regret your decision.

Joe
 

mpdive

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
567
Re: humidity control

I'm guessing he meant abroad? Ooops, OKAY, I read the rest of the post....sorry!

I did that in a camper in my younger days. I can't imagine doing it on a boat.....
Way too many things that could go wrong. I'm not one to be able help with this
one. Listen to the advice above. I think you'd regret your decision.

Joe[/QUOte
I use to live with a broad. It didn't work out:facepalm:
 

cfiegehen

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
30
Re: humidity control

listen, i am not asking for advice whether to stay on the boat or not...many people do it here...the wrap has vent measures in place...i am asking for advice of people who have already done it...so please dont waste your time saying i will regret my decision...I am seeking the advice of people who do it now and what they do to make it a comfortable stay...thank you
 

chriscraft254

Commander
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,445
Re: humidity control

Buy a dehumidifier. I was just working on a houseboat that had a portable standup one with a pull out bottom tray for water collection. Holds atleast a gallon in there. Running it in the summer, it will fill up every 3 to 4 days. Shuts off automatically when full. It just plugs into a regular outlet.

Something to be more concerned about is how you will be heating. Make sure if you are using something that is portable that it doesn't cause fumes.

Here is another issue, the water tank on your boat can freeze, and there will be no water supply at the dock during the winter if it is like most yacht clubs/marinas in the freezing climate areas..
 

cfiegehen

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
30
Re: humidity control

Yeah i was thinking a de humidifier, for this season i will have an oil/ electric heater and an infrared heater with a couple space heaters so i am hoping that works ok, i have friends that do that now...the marina does have running water...and a pump out service every 2 weeks...now would it be fair to say that if the boat was heated the water lines and tank will not freeze? some people even put a small space heater in the engine compartment and keep it on constantly...i appreciate all the constructive ideas...will be a learning experience...
 

Philster

Captain
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
3,342
Re: humidity control

Ventilation is key, and dehumidifying, but no one but you can see what is going on, so watch for moisture issues and then increase ventilation and/or dehumidifying as you see fit. Mold, mildew, dampness on materials that normally feel dry, such as cushions, clothes, etc -- these are signs of it being too damp, because the air is saturated and the dampness can only settle on materials.

Water is a by-product of cooking with gas. It actually takes oxygen, which might be a valuable and limited resource to you, and replaces it with carbon dioxide and water vapor. Using gases to cook and heat can actually cause quite a bit of moisture build up. You need to keep an eye on that. How much moisture? Well, some gas-burning fireplaces are required to shut off if they create too much airborne moisture (just as a reference to how serious it is).

This is not intended to answer all your questions, but to point out that you need to pay attention and react to ventilation and dehumidifying issues, and maybe learn more about how burning cooking and heating gases increases humidity and might cause other air quality issues that could affect or end your life.

.
 

25thmustang

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
1,849
Re: humidity control

listen, i am not asking for advice whether to stay on the boat or not...many people do it here...the wrap has vent measures in place...i am asking for advice of people who have already done it...so please dont waste your time saying i will regret my decision...I am seeking the advice of people who do it now and what they do to make it a comfortable stay...thank you

I don't mean this to come out wrong, and am sorry if it does, but your best bet may be to track down the people who do it in your area and ask them. I imagine Toronto gets very cold and snowy in the winter? If there are others in your area that you know do it, they would know best.

Do they continue the pump out service through the winter? If not, a porta pottie would be the best bet, although you would have to empty it often. I personally would avoid keeping the fresh water tank full, and would rather run off the city water, assuming they keep it running year round?
 

Lakes84

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
253
Re: humidity control

Weeelllll.......Since we are all FRIENDS here. You will get advice from all sides. I'm sure you have friends there who have questioned your decision....It's human nature....and we all mean well:)

Make sure you have a smoke detector and carbon monoxide detector on board....very important!

Joe
 

cfiegehen

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
30
Re: humidity control

Weeelllll.......Since we are all FRIENDS here. You will get advice from all sides. I'm sure you have friends there who have questioned your decision....It's human nature....and we all mean well:)

Make sure you have a smoke detector and carbon monoxide detector on board....very important!

Joe

I do agree we are all friends here, but i am sure you guys can appreciate, what kind of advice i was looking for...I am moving onto my boat no matter what, not a "choice" it is what i have to do, and as i appreciate my new friends saying i will regret my decision, this does not help me...but i will take the advice of the previous post and seek info from my fellow liveaboards....i was just trying to get a head start and throw some ideas around...thanks everyone....I am the 5th of my friends to make this move...they have some advice, but i like turning to these forums because the members on here are a great source of knowledge...thanks again
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: humidity control

I have no issues with you moving onto your boat. Just the shrink wrapping thing confuses me. Is that to help you deal with snow?
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
941
Re: humidity control

Cfiegehen,

I live on my boat. I have live on it during some very snowy winters in Baltimore. Here is what I have learned:

1. Humidity is a significant factor while on board. Since boats are not well insulated, condensation is the real problem. To help control condensation (which normally will form on surfaces with little to no insulation such as windows, windshields, etc.) try to insulate the windshield with some type of thin bubble type insulation or a shrinkable clear film type for the windows. I cover my large front windshield (on the outside) with a cover I made out of the silver bubble type insulation that they sell in Home Desperate. It comes in a roll and is easily cut to fit. It provides just enough of a hard cold barrier to prevent the condensation from forming on the inside. The shrinkable clear film for the side windows works well also.

2. The only way to "dry" the air is through heating or a condensing dehumidifier. Marine suppliers do sell air dryers that operate on very low power and move large amounts of air. Typical dehumidifiers will work also albeit they can be big and noisy.

3. The single BIGGEST issue you will face is power availability. What I mean is the amount of power available to you while on board. Most boats have either a dual 30 amp or single 50 amp connection. With that said you only have half of that available to power the AC side of your boat...usually the other half is for the AC. 30 amps of 110V is next to nothing power wise. Two 1500 watt heaters will eat up 30 amps alone. On top of that you still need power to run your fridge, hot water heater (another high draw load), dehumidifier, battery charger, some lights, etc. So as you can see, the likely hood of powering everything you need is very limited and requires jockeying around the power load as needed.

This is how I do it:

1. Insulate as much as you can. This will help mitigate the moisture problems on surfaces.
2. I use a indoor safe propane ceramic IR heater. It cranks out the heat and can warm the boat quickly.
3. Use small temperature controlled safety heaters in the cabin to keep the interior above freezing when you are not on board. Keep the cabinet doors open to prevent pipes and drains from freezing. If this doesn't work well then winterize everything and go with bottled water.
4. Winterize the engines and all other water systems below deck (AC, etc.) and close off the engine vents.
5. Wire in two additional outlets from the AC side of your electric. This will allow you to run additional heaters and/or shift the power load as needed.

Good luck. I will be with you in spirit this year as well. :cool:
 

cfiegehen

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
30
Re: humidity control

Cfiegehen,

I live on my boat. I have live on it during some very snowy winters in Baltimore. Here is what I have learned:

1. Humidity is a significant factor while on board. Since boats are not well insulated, condensation is the real problem. To help control condensation (which normally will form on surfaces with little to no insulation such as windows, windshields, etc.) try to insulate the windshield with some type of thin bubble type insulation or a shrinkable clear film type for the windows. I cover my large front windshield (on the outside) with a cover I made out of the silver bubble type insulation that they sell in Home Desperate. It comes in a roll and is easily cut to fit. It provides just enough of a hard cold barrier to prevent the condensation from forming on the inside. The shrinkable clear film for the side windows works well also.

2. The only way to "dry" the air is through heating or a condensing dehumidifier. Marine suppliers do sell air dryers that operate on very low power and move large amounts of air. Typical dehumidifiers will work also albeit they can be big and noisy.

3. The single BIGGEST issue you will face is power availability. What I mean is the amount of power available to you while on board. Most boats have either a dual 30 amp or single 50 amp connection. With that said you only have half of that available to power the AC side of your boat...usually the other half is for the AC. 30 amps of 110V is next to nothing power wise. Two 1500 watt heaters will eat up 30 amps alone. On top of that you still need power to run your fridge, hot water heater (another high draw load), dehumidifier, battery charger, some lights, etc. So as you can see, the likely hood of powering everything you need is very limited and requires jockeying around the power load as needed.

This is how I do it:

1. Insulate as much as you can. This will help mitigate the moisture problems on surfaces.
2. I use a indoor safe propane ceramic IR heater. It cranks out the heat and can warm the boat quickly.
3. Use small temperature controlled safety heaters in the cabin to keep the interior above freezing when you are not on board. Keep the cabinet doors open to prevent pipes and drains from freezing. If this doesn't work well then winterize everything and go with bottled water.
4. Winterize the engines and all other water systems below deck (AC, etc.) and close off the engine vents.
5. Wire in two additional outlets from the AC side of your electric. This will allow you to run additional heaters and/or shift the power load as needed.

Good luck. I will be with you in spirit this year as well. :cool:

Thank you that is very helpful...I will not be using the shower, but i guess the i will still need water for cooking Etc, so i will have running water to wash dishes and such...is it fair to say if the cabin is above freezing then and the water isnt frozen around the boat, that the water lines under the floor wont freeze? or can i put a small space heater in the space under the floor? does this make sense at all? I am just concerned of something freeing...also do you have the fly bridge wrapped and use that space also?
Thank you very much for that response....!!!!!
 

25thmustang

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
1,849
Re: humidity control

I would think to have the water under the boat not forzen you will need bubblers. With that said I'm not sure how warm bubbled water is, but I would make sure to winterize any system you plan on not using.

Does your marina offer city water through the winter? I would guess no, but theres a chance they might.
 

NHGuy

Captain
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
3,631
Re: humidity control

My guess is there will need to be circulators-bubblers under the boat. We use them in Cow Hampshire to keep the docks from freezing in winter. Toronto is quite a lot colder so they might need to move more water than ours do.
I think the idea of insulating the single pane glass with a layer of bubble wrap sounds smart. It will keep you from getting a buildup of ice inside the windows. Put that stuff every where unless you have it on good authority that the shrink wrap is the move.
Once you have decided if you will shut down everything below deck you could lay down a barrier on the floor, oops deck, too. Your feet won't feel so cold if they contact an insulating layer.
If you want to avoid needing to keep the cabinets open you could put decorative vents or screens in the cabinets to allow air in there. Maybe make up a temporary vented cabinet door for each end and run a blower if needed to pull the air through. Then in summer go back to the regular cabinets. Your fridge will create a tiny amount of heat, that's good. And you could use a cooler or non insulated box outside the heated area for frozen foods during the really cold months.
Does your cookstove have a power vent? If the stove creates too much moisture you could run the exhaust blower while cooking. Or you could even run it part of the time and shut it off when the air is OK. It seems wasteful to toss out that heat, but it might be necessary at some point. Also using that method you can remove greasy air or food smoke if you have a cooking malfunction. Ask your fellow live-aboards if they vent the stove outside or under the shrink wrap.
Please come back & tell us what you learn, I am interested.
I wish you as much comfort as possible.
 

cfiegehen

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
30
Re: humidity control

Hey guys, this is all great stuff to think about...so fr i have learned that i need 2 water agitators (0.5 hp) to keep the water moving, and even better if i have a neighbor next to me with some also....The bubble material for the windows is a great idea i will do for sure...now i would imagine that stuff goes on the inside...sorry likely a silly question...is the an actual name for that stuff? the marina does have running water all year...there is a hose that you stretch to your boat...and if one person does his/ her boat they usually ask everyone else on the dock if they need any...I think it is safe to say the bubbled water is above 0 because it brings the warmer water up from the bottom as well as keeping it moving...I have 2 heads, one of which will be winterized completely, and i plan on using the shower at work and the one at the marina...as for cooking, this is one area i have been thinking about, thanks for reminding me...might need to find some sort of system to vent the cooking exhaust out somehow, i am sure the people beside me have a way...i will also likely be adding another30 amp service to allow more heaters and de humidifier... I am picking the boat up tomorrow and bringing it back to Toronto, so i will have a better look at what is involved and for sure keep anyone who is interested in what i come up with to stay comfy...please keep all these great thoughts and ideas coming...i am sure there are challenges i have not even thought of yet and you guys are helping greatly...thanks again, wish me luck
 

smokeonthewater

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
9,838
Re: humidity control

I live in a 38' fifth wheel rv year round.... I can tell you that when it is below freezing outside, you will not have any humidity in the air.... it will be DRY..... any moisture in the air will condense ASAP on the poorly insulated outer surfaces such as the inside of the hull and the windows... it will either freeze or run down the walls.... The trick is to control the moisture that gets into the air instead of trying to pull it out... I DO roll up paper towels and line the bottoms of the windows with them.... any water that runs down hits them instead of staining the walls and they kind of act as a buffer when the sun comes out and thaws the frost that forms inside them... BTW you will put WAY more moisture out by just breathing than most people expect....
 
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