97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
I bought this motor a month ago and the guy gave me 2 stroke motomaster oil 400ml left, it's the cheap Canadiantire oil.
So I guess this is what he used in the motor for 14 years.
It's tc-w3 certified. But I have been spending a lot of time on the forums and googling trying to find out what oil is better to use.
Recently I bought a gallon of xd-50 because I though the motor would last longer since it's manufacture oil, though I'm starting to think it's not worth it since it was 40 dollars a gallon.
The local shop sells castrol super outboard 2 stroke just a regular oil for 15 dollars a gallon.
I'm just so confused now and not sure what to use for the long run as I really like this motor and I want to last.
 

F_R

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
28,195
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

If it is certified TC-W3 oil, and bears the NMMA logo, it is good to use. NMMA is the authority that tests and certifies the oil. If it is not certified by them, it means one of two things:

1. The mfr has not submitted the oil for testing and certification, OR,

2. They did submit it and it flunked the test.

Double-talk like "meets TC-W3 standards" does not mean it is certified. It has to say so and bear the logo. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that it actually exceeds the standards, but has not been submitted for certification. Trouble is, you just don't know.
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Then why does the evinrude oil cost 40 dollars and castrol 15 dollars if they will protect the motor just the same?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Then why does the evinrude oil cost 40 dollars and castrol 15 dollars if they will protect the motor just the same?

Marketing and advertizing. Also, Evinrude has to buy the stuff from the maker before they sell it to your dealer.

"Store Brand" oil (SuperTech for example) has the lowest overhead cost, so more of your money is spent on the product and less, far less, on hype.

There is a significant, visible difference between TC-W3 petro oils and synthetics. Amount of smoke, carbon, pollution and stink are greatly reduced by synthetics, but, of course, so is your wallet.

Important point: The biggest difference between "cheap" oil and "premium" oil is not quality, it is overhead.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
15,484
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Here's an article that was published in Bass&walleye Mag a while back.

Lubrication Lowdown

Story and Photos By Bill Grannis


Boating enthusiasts are an opinionated group. No boat related subject, though, brings out religious fervor and flaring tempers as much as a discussion about outboard oil. Each lubrication opinion is sacred and is not easily changed. During a heated discussion, you may have heard folks say, "Show me a Yamaha refinery," or "I've never seen an Evinrude oil well" or "Oils are all the same, they just have different prices and containers." Opinions vary from recommending the cheapest TC-W3 available to only using the motor manufacturer's oil.

Multi-tasking Outboard oil does not just lubricate. In fact, almost anything from olive oil to baby oil will reduce friction. Today you do not see "blown" motors from poor lubrication quality, but from carbon stuck rings, rust, lean mixtures, and detonation. Fewer deposit formations, the reduction of engine wear, and corrosion resistance are just some of the other "jobs" required of a TC-W3 lubricant. An outboard motor, like an aircraft engine, runs at a relatively constant speed where the average piston temperature stays high. This duty cycle makes outboards more prone to carbon buildup as well as pre-ignition and detonation damage. As a result, special additives are required for cleaning deposits and reducing wear.

Direct fuel injected (DFI) engines, such as FICHT, Optimax, and HPDI, need a very high quality oil because of their unique operating characteristics. With only air passing through the engine block, DFI motors operate with elevated crankcase temperatures and recirculated hot oil. This lubricant still has to function over time, even after the evaporation of its thinner and more volatile components. In contrast, oil in a regular two-stroke only lubricates and cleans for 1/100 of a second at 6000 rpm,. Traditional motors also benefit from an internal cooling effect as the fuel mixture travels through the crankcase. The throttle venturi area runs so cold that occasionally condensation forms on a muggy day. As of publication, only OMC has a product formulated for DFI motors, FICHT Ram Oil. It is a partial-synthetic blend containing additives to prevent deposits and to protect parts from the high temperatures generated in a DFI outboard. Other oil and motor companies had no comment when asked if they were developing a DFI oil.

Certification The National Marine Manufacturer's Association (NMMA) sets the lubrication standards and routinely checks oils for consistent quality. Certifying a new oil costs around $150,000 per formula for all the engine tests conducted by independent labs along with a $2000 registration and a $925 annual fee. Testing conducted in these independent laboratories uses several specific engines as well as reference fuels and oils for comparison. Lubricity, compatibility, corrosion resistance and detergency are some of the characteristics evaluated. The tests are pass-fail only. Some of the severe ring sticking tests (at a 100:1 ratio) allow for 15 percent scuffing (not metal scoring) of the piston, so an oil scuffing only 14 percent can advertise it exceeds the TC-W3 specifications. None of the outboard manufactures with whom we spoke allow any scuffing at all with their oils, and the oil companies contacted would not comment.

Each TC-W3 certified formula has a registration number printed on the container starting with "R-" , followed by 5 digits. Sometimes you will see one brand with several different numbers all on the same shelf. Presently, around 650 different formulas are certified TC-W3. Numerous companies use more than one certified formula for less dependency on chemical availability and price fluctuations. Some manufacturers sell their oils in several grades, each containing different compositions and priced accordingly. Others package and sell a TC-W3 oil under more than one name, usually as private brands, store brands, and for anyone wanting their name on a bottle. According to some accounts, even a few "big name" oil companies do not even make their own TC-W3 oil but put their label on a another's brand. For them it is more efficient to sell in such a small market compared to the enormous automotive, commercial, and industrial market.

Chemistry 101 A TC- W3 lubricant is made up of many parts: base oils, solvents and multiple additives. High-viscosity neutral stock and thick bright stock make up the heavy weight base oils. These are commodities, sold like peanut oil, propane or corn syrup. Some blenders may specify a particular base oil brand, giving birth to the erroneous statement that "X" oil company make "Y's" outboard oil. Varying the amounts of each stock determines the costs, lubrication benefits, smoke output, and high-temp lubricity. Bright stock is a heavy weight oil with good high temperature lubricating properties and carries the additive package to the combustion chamber. Having lower flash points for easier combustion, neutral stocks are lighter to provide instant lubrication on startup. Synthetic compounds like Polyisobutylene (PIB) reduce smoke and provide high temperature lubrication, but are very expensive. Only Yamaha and OMC state they use PIB, the rest would not comment. Solvents dilute the thick base oils to facilitate mixing with gasoline and flowing through injection systems. Additives are like medicines; thousands from which to chose and millions of combinations, each varying in price and effectiveness. Most are nitrogen-based, verses metallic- based used in air-cooled motors, and do not show up on the analysis chart. Lubrizol, Oronite and Infinium are the largest producers of two-stroke additives.

Each blender of TC-W3 oils has a different agenda in the formulation and marketing of its product. Some aim for the price-motivated consumer, making a passing grade lubricant as inexpensively as possible. Others cater to the educated boater who wants the additional protection of a quality oil and is willing to pay for it. Many sell on brand name recognition or automotive oil reputation. Motor manufacturers design the engines and do the most testing because of the sheer number of outboards they run every year. Oil corporations know the lubrication business and have the facilities for analysis, bottling, and marketing, but TC-W3 oil is only a minute part of sales. Additive companies invent, test and make the compounds used in outboard oils. Some sell complete packages for mixing with base oils as well as individual components for specific applications. The ideal situation is when all three entities combine resources.

The Analysis We analyzed 12 popular OEM and aftermarket oils to determine any differences in chemistry. Only regular "off- the-shelf" outboard oils were chosen and obtained from dealers, WalMart, K-Mart and West Marine. No racing oils, pure synthetics, or biodegradable lubricants were included.

After researching oil laboratories, it became clear that a thorough examination would cost over $1000 per sample and still not find every element. Commercial labs specializing in engine oil analysis test for the most common elements at a reasonable price and are set up for quick turnaround. Of these, we chose CTC Analytical Services for their reputation and nationwide network of laboratories. Ted Bernhard, manager, was eager to help in our quest and, through many phone calls, gave us a crash course in chemistry and oil analysis. He also helped interpret the results and explained why many organic compounds and proprietary formulas did not show up in reports.

The emission spectrometer, used for analysis, contains a special chamber for holding a small amount of oil and burning it in an electrical arc emanating from two graphite electrodes. As an element ignites, it gives off a distinct lightwave frequency. Positioned around the chamber are 21 sensors, each calibrated to a specific element's wavelength. The intensity of the lightwave indicates the concentration of the element and a computer converts this data into parts per million. Accuracy is within 1/2 PPM and results below 2 parts per million (PPM) are considered insignificant.

Oil viscosity is also reported to show different ratios of solvents, neutral stocks, and the highly-refined bright stocks of the various brands. Viscosity is the "thickness" of a liquid; honey has a high viscosity while automatic transmission fluid has a low viscosity. The TC-W3 lubricants have to be "thin" enough to flow through snowmobile oil injectors at -40 degrees centigrade and mix easily with fuel. At high internal temperatures, the oil has to be "heavy" enough to provide lubrication and to contain the additives. Too much solvent dilutes the lubrication properties and not enough makes the "thick" oil resistant to passing through filter screens.

The analysis chart shows differences in ALL the oils except for Walmart's and Exxon's, whose certification numbers are not alike, but the viscosity, elements, and concentrations are. This project is not about proving whose oil is best, but showing there are different chemistries among popular brands, contrary to some opinions.

We also performed our own tests. Equal amounts of the oils were mixed together and observed over several weeks for "gelling'. TC-W3 procedures only mix one sample with a reference oil. No incompatibilities resulted. No gel formed, either, after introducing a small amount of water to simulate condensation buildup. A larger quantity of water quickly settled to the bottom of the jar, displaying a distinct emulsion layer.

Manufacturer's Recommendations Citing the highly competitive marketplace, most of the companies were reluctant to talk about their ingredients or substantiate claims for their products. They mentioned proprietary formulas and trade secrets as the reasons and stated their oils exceeded TC-W3 specifications. The motor factories were very supportive and generous with information in response to our inquiries.

Pennzoil has since introduced Premium Plus Oil, a partial synthetic blend. They would not give out any data on it but said that is better than their lower priced Premium brand and an advertising campaign is forthcoming.

Several years ago, Yamaha changed its Yamalube 2 oil formula to an improved outboard lubricant called Yamalube 2M and came out with Yamalube 2W, formulated for high- revving PWCs. Only the 2M is TC-W3 approved and 2W should never be used in an outboard or mixed with outboard oil. It is ironic Yamaha warns in its owner's manuals not to use any silicon, phosphorous or lead in motors with Oxygen sensors, yet its oil is the only one containing phosphorous. "It is only part of an anti-wear compound," says Claude vonPlato, manager of Yamaha Parts & Accessories, "and the very small amount of phosphate doesn't affect the sensor... Yamaha is in the business of selling engines. Therefore the performance of the oil formula is the primary concern, not the cost. I recommend that people stick with one of the motor manufacturer's top- of-the-line oils, no matter what motor they are running. All the motor manufacturers have the same agenda when it comes to oil development."

Don Schultz, a Mercury lubrication engineer, echoes Von Plato's comments about OEM oils and adds, "The Mercury Premium Plus formulation has been proven to be a superior product when used in high output engines in severe conditions and this unique superior performance formulation costs more to produce." Mercury has two grades of oils and a racing oil. Premium Oil is the lower-cost brand and the label states that this oil is a value-priced product that "meets the needs of low- to mid-horsepower outboard engines". Premium Plus is Mercury's top-of-the-line oil and is recommended for high-horsepower and Optimax motors. In a November 1998 service bulletin, Premium Plus is recommended over Mercury's expensive Performance Blend racing oil for Pro Max and Super Magnum outboards.

Both motor representatives state that the molybdenum in their products is not the same "moly" particles in "miracle" car oils. This molybdenum is part of an antioxidant and antirust compound, spelled with 26 letters. As a comparison, an analysis of ordinary table salt would show a poisonous gas (chlorine) and an explosive element (sodium) combined and named sodium chloride.

OMC's Director of Product Management, Dean Devore, says each of OMC's oils has a place in the market. Nauticpro is manufactured for mass merchandisers to sell as a value- priced, approved lubricant for the cost-conscious consumer. Johnson/Evinrude oil is a better oil for all-around use, corrosion protection, and engine longevity. FICHT Ram oil is a semi-synthetic, which was developed for the high temperature DFI motors and contains a proprietary compound to remove carbon particles from engine parts in new and used outboards. Asked why OMC oil is recommended for Johnsons and Evinrudes, Dean answered, " Each year we spend over 200,000 hours testing our oil formulations in the most severe conditions. Our formulas exceed the TCW-3 requirements by as much as 35%. Just as our propellers are designed to match the power curve of our outboard, the oil we sell was engineered by OMC and it matches the needs of the engine. As we have made advancements in chemical technology, we have increased the detergency of the oil. Carbon deposits are the worst enemy of any two-stroke engine. Our oil formulas are engineered to attract carbon and remove it from the combustion chamber."



Observations In conclusion, any approved TC-W3 oil will lubricate your outboard; however, there are chemical and performance differences between them. Each oil marketer states theirs exceeds the specifications and will not void your outboard manufacturer's warranty; yet no aftermarket mineral oil advertises they are better than an OEM. The factories would like you to use their lubricants and do have the expertise and testing facilities at their disposal. Each motor manufacturer says they work in conjunction with the additive suppliers and the oil companies to improve their lubricants and to develop new products, while no one else can use the same additive package and formulas as theirs.

To save customers money, many places sell bulk oil if you bring your own container. Sometimes you can save over 40% this way instead of purchasing individual one gallon jugs. Talk to other boaters or call dealers and marinas to find these savings. If you are a large quantity user, consider buying a drum of oil for yourself or to split with several friends.

Although OEM oils have good deposit cleansers, the manufacturers still want you to clean out carbon with one of their products. Read your owner's manual, use a high quality oil, service your motor according to the manufacturer, and utilize a carbon cleaner (spray or additive) regularly to keep your outboard in peak operating condition with a long, trouble-free life

Acknowledgements Many people contributed to this article and without thanking them for their time and trouble, this story would not be complete. Ted Bernhard ,CTC Analytical, went over and above the call of duty in helping with this endeavor. Dean Devore, OMC; Don Schultz, Mercury; and Claude vonPlato, Yamaha, spent valuable time explaining their respective company's lubricants and answering our many questions. From NMMA, Tom Marhevco furnished testing procedures and TC-W3 guidelines as well as an education in "oilology". Pennzoil's Darci Sinclair and Infineum's Martin Meyers donated videos about TC-W3 outboard oils and their testing. The owners and employees of Bluewater Boats, Chip's Marine Service, Lucenti-Bonds Marine, and K-D Marine, from the Daytona Beach and surrounding areas, donated their time, facilities, and supplies.
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

I used up what was in the gas tank xd-50 and then fill it up with fresh gas and 45:1 castrol super outboard.
I did not notice any difference in performance, and trolling seemed to produce no big difference in excess smoke, though when trolling for a long time then shutting down did create smoke upon startup where the xd-50 did not.
So now I understand it makes no difference in longevity but will the motor get dirtier?
That article says that manufactures make oil for there motors. Yet so many brands exist and a 2 stroke motor is a 2 stroke motor. Crank case, bearing, rings and pistons.
Some people say I only used a synthetic oil, some just use the cheapest walmart oil.
How do we know at the end of the day what oil is best to use?
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Outboard makers do not make the oil they put their logo on. They make motors and buy oil from someone who does make it. They usually set specs for additives so they can hype it. All that more than doubles the true cost of oil that you can buy with a store brand on it. That is just the biggest lie in that article. The rest is marketing gobbledegook.

The best oil to use is one that meets the warranty requirements of that particular engine, which for most outboards is TC-W3 certification, nothing more.

Forget the stupid notion that the price of SuperTech is an indicator of low quality. It is an indicator of efficient marketing and low overhead, neither of which has anything at all to do with the quality of the product.
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Thanks JB, I'll just continue with what ever is cheap as I walk by the shelf!
How about gear oil, is the Castrol EP 90 good to use in any lower unit?
 

Brewman61

Ensign
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Messages
996
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

How do we know at the end of the day what oil is best to use?

you don't know. All you can do is to try to make an educated decision, based on criteria that is important to you.
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

What about gear oil?
What ever outboard gear oil is cheapest as well?
 

ezmobee

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
23,767
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

For the gear oil it is a good idea to spring for specific "outboard lower unit gear lube" as opposed to the equivalent regular 80w or whatever it is because the marine version has additives in it to better handle slight water intrusion (or some I'm told). But again, brand doesn't really matter.
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Castrol Outboard gear oil

"Castrol Outboard Gear Oil EP90 - Mineral based - formulated to protect against corrosion, oxidation and foam - Recommended for all outboard gear cases except where the manufacturer specifies a TYPE C or synthetic containing lubricant"

On the back it reads can be used in all outboard gear drives requiring an API GL-5, SAE 90 or 80W-90 gear oil.
-Stable extreme pressure additives
-Water resistance
-Foam depressant.

Looks good to me and it's only about 3 dollars a pint where the dealer stuff is 8 dollars or more.
 

pootnic

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
447
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

You say he used it for 14 years...that is good adverizing right there.
If it's certified tc-w3,why change.
Motor wouldn't of lasted this long if it was garbage.
 

nwcove

Admiral
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
6,293
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Outboard makers do not make the oil they put their logo on. They make motors and buy oil from someone who does make it. They usually set specs for additives so they can hype it. All that more than doubles the true cost of oil that you can buy with a store brand on it. That is just the biggest lie in that article. The rest is marketing gobbledegook.

The best oil to use is one that meets the warranty requirements of that particular engine, which for most outboards is TC-W3 certification, nothing more.

Forget the stupid notion that the price of SuperTech is an indicator of low quality. It is an indicator of efficient marketing and low overhead, neither of which has anything at all to do with the quality of the product.

i agree, if it truely meets the specs, why pay more for the logo's on the container? its kinda like shopping for food, you can pay 50% more for a brand name product, or get the same product, from the same factory, a whole lot cheaper if yer not paying for the fancy marketing/packaging overhead!
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

is it the same for outboard gear oil as well?
I was asking before about the castrol EP 90 since I do have about 3 500ml bottles of it, is that ok?
 

hidef

Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
1,465
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

I would use the Castrol 90W gear oil with no concerns any oil the meets the GL-5 spec is good.

As for the two cycle oil I generally use whatever is cheap I am currently using Pennzoil because it was given to me I received 5 gallons of it. I have used the Canadian tire outboard oil in the past and will most likely buy that when the Pennzoil is gone. Although if I can get a deal on the Castrol TC-W3 I will buy that :)
 

nwcove

Admiral
Joined
May 16, 2011
Messages
6,293
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

is it the same for outboard gear oil as well?
I was asking before about the castrol EP 90 since I do have about 3 500ml bottles of it, is that ok?
in the search bar at the top of the page, type in "automotive 80w90 gear oil".............it will bring you to a thread that discusses that very topic.
 

rickjm1001

Seaman
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
53
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Automotive gear oil is not the same as outboard gear oil. The outboard version contains foam depressants where as the automotive does not.
hidef, you can get the castrol super outboard tc-w3 at walmart and caps.
 

pecheux

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
1,200
Re: 97 johnson 25 hp 3 cyl what does it matter what oil to use?

Seems to me there is a lot of cheating going on with 2 cycle outboard oil resellers that includes the famous "MEETS OR EXCEEDS TC-W3" wording and makes it look like it's Tc-W3 CERTIFIED ... when it's not realy, but it's probably good enough oil just the same. One company specialising in synthetic oils dared wrote "TO BE USED WHEN TC-W3 IS SPECIFIED and all hell broke loose ... LOL but it is also good enough synthetic oils. IMHO money talks ... $$$$
 
Top