6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

scott_maier · May 23, 2011

Hello,

I noticed water dripping from the bottom of the shifter handle on this motor. Actually it's dripping off the grease nipple. I can't find where it is coming from so I'm guessing its' the gasket between the power head and motor housing pan, but i don't know. Anybody out there ever see this happen or have a suggestion?

jrs_diesel · May 23, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

There's an o-ring on the shifter handle shaft where it goes through the midsection. To get to that you need to remove the powerhead, and disconnect the upper shift linkage to pull out the handle.

If it's coming out of the grease nipple though, try giving a few pumps of grease in it. The shaft is hollow to allow grease in, but if there's no grease then water can come out. Where the shifter linkage sits is right where the water/exhaust exits the powerhead to go down the midsection.

F_R · May 23, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

A large majority of those motors leak there, and eventually the rest of them will also---unless the owner replaces that o-ring. It really won't hurt anything if it drips, but you should keep it well greased so it doesn't wear out from the lube being washed out.

scott_maier · May 23, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

Thats great news. I've been playing around with this motor for awhile now and haven't been able to get it to run very good. So...when I saw the water dripping I was thinking i had some kind of serious problem like water getting into the cylinders.

On that note... I've got 65psi on each cylinder when compression testing, good coils, new points and condensers, rebuilt carb, rebuilt the fuel pump and still it idles like crappola. There's a slight chance I mixed up the spark plug wires when i put the coils in, but i doubt it, I'm gonna try swapping them tonight and see what happens. The gas is a couple months old so maybe thats the problem. The only other thing is that the points on one side don't line up totally. When they are closed the little discs are offset. When i say discs i mean the actual point surfaces. I dont' see any way to get the discs lined up perfectly. Comments???

jrs_diesel · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

You're compression is a bit low. That may be the source of your rough running. Squirt a little bit of oil into the cylinders and check compression again. If compression goes up then you know you have cylinder/ring issues.

I have a 72 6 HP that I am rebuilding. Both pistons and rings were trashed. But before I took it apart, it would run with some gas squirted down the carb. It's amazing the abuse that these engines can take and still run.

How far offset are your points?

One more piece of advice, take care of that shift handle. It's cast aluminum, easy to break, and expensive to replace.

scott_maier · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

the points on that one side are about a 1/32" misaligned. I'll do the compression test again with some oil, but I think i did that way back in the beginning and didn't see it jump up.

I swapped the plug wires and the engine back fired a little, swapped em back and got it to idle, but not good. The timing is off a bit. The timing mark is about 1/8" outside the two lines. Im not sure if it is advanced or retarded. I ran out of daylight yesterday and couldn't get it perfect.

I'm also starting to think i have a bad reed valve(s). I know this is a rare occurrence, but I've put two different carbs on and get the same results...gas coming out the air horn. One carb came off a running engine(I was told) and the other I put a new kit in. It's a bit confusing because I can see gas dripping from the carb and it won't start, but if I spray gas directly into the carb it will start!

jrs_diesel · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

I wouldn't think you had bad reed valves. You spraying pre mix into the carb proves they work since the engine runs. If they were stuck shut, engine would not run. Stuck open, engine will run poorly, if at all due to the fule/air charge getting pushed the wrong way by the piston.

I think you have a fuel delivery issue. Gas running out of the carb indicates a bad needle valve/float in the carb bowl. An excess of fuel will cause a no start situation since the fuel/air mix reaching the cylinders is too rich. Take one of your carbs and take it completely apart, and clean everything. Pay particular attention to the float and needle valve, the main jet, and the low speed ajustment orifice. Hopefully the tip of the low speed adjustment isn't broken off in the carb like mine is. If your float is made of cork, replace it with the newer plastic version.

I don't think 1/32" will affect your points much. More important that they be clean and gapped properly. I can't help you on timing since I haven't got that far into my rebuild yet.

scott_maier · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

Well first off the engine is running poorly. I'm thinking the reeds are stuck open or not sealing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but lets take one piston. When it goes up the vacuum on the back side of the piston opens the reed valve for that cylinder pulling in the fuel mixture. When the piston goes down it the pressure on the back side closes the reed valve. If the reed is stuck open or not sealing it would blow the mixture back out the carb. Eventually the fuel would just be going back and forth and not getting to the top of the piston to be ignited...right??? But in that case I guess it would really be spraying out and not dripping like in my carburetor.

I understand how the carb works. I've had them apart many times, the float is set right and the needle seats. If i blow into the fuel input of the carb with it upside down the air is cutoff, right side up the air flows. I modified a screw driver so i could get the jet out...the jet is fine, no problemo. the low speed needle is fine. That's about it for the carb unless i'm missing something. Maybe the rings are bad...

Tim Frank · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

When you rebuilt the carb did you remove the welch plugs so that you could clean the passages in behind them?

scott_maier · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

When you rebuilt the carb did you remove the welch plugs so that you could clean the passages in behind them?

Yes.

jrs_diesel · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

I agree, I think it would be spraying ful out the carb if it were the reed valves. Never hurt to check them though.

Check your fuel pump for leaks too. It operates from cylinder vacuum. If it has a blown diaphragm, that can leak fuel back into the crankcase.

Have you taken off the cylinder head or bypass cover to check the condition of the cylinder and pistons? Like I mentioned before, mine ran with bad pistons. How well it would have ran, i don't know, I didn't get that far before I tore it open. Once I got my bypass cover off, I knew that I was in need of a rebuild when I saw how bad the pistons looked.

scott_maier · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

jrs_diesel said:
I agree, I think it would be spraying ful out the carb if it were the reed valves. Never hurt to check them though.

Check your fuel pump for leaks too. It operates from cylinder vacuum. If it has a blown diaphragm, that can leak fuel back into the crankcase.

Have you taken off the cylinder head or bypass cover to check the condition of the cylinder and pistons? Like I mentioned before, mine ran with bad pistons. How well it would have ran, i don't know, I didn't get that far before I tore it open. Once I got my bypass cover off, I knew that I was in need of a rebuild when I saw how bad the pistons looked.

I rebuilt the fuel pump, they say your not supposed to be able to do that, but there is a kit available, and it is a pain, but the pump is working good. I double checked it yesterday actually. I pulled it of the crankcase and pumped the primer bulb on the gas tank...nothing leaked. AFter I got the moter running(roughly) I disconnected the fuel line from the carb and it was pumping fuel. So...i'm giving the fuel pump a thumbs up.

I took the head off a few months ago, it was crudded bad. After cleaning it, I polished the sealing surface with sandpaper layed on a piece of glass and re-installed w a new head gasket. Also cleaned up the tops of the pistons as best possible. I left the head off for a few days and would spray seafoam in the cylinders, rotate the flywheel then wipe up the dirty oil, did that a bunch of times, dont know if that helped anything, the compression didn't improve much after i put it back together.. I didn't see any scratches/scores on the cylinder walls, but they were glazed looking.

jrs_diesel · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

My cylinder walls looked good too, even with the bad pistons. Pop the bypass cover off next, should be 10 screws holding it on the right hand side of the motor (tiller handle side). With that off you can look at the pistons and rings through the exhaust ports.

Here's the post i made a while back about the pistons in my motor (has pictures of both).
http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=378227&p=2534268

Thinking back to my initial repair, my motor would only fire if I sprayed premix into the cylinders. Wouldn't do anything if I sprayed it down my carb. Too much leak down I imagine. I didn't even bother hooking up a gas tank after that as that is when I started to troubleshoot. Now the motor is in pieces while I am collecting all the parts for the paint job and rebuild.

scott_maier · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

I looked at your posts and I think my pistons are in much better shape than your pistons

. Did you end up buying new ones?

I rebuilt a 35 johnson w/new pistons and a rebuild kit so I know how much fun a total rebuild can be, especially when bolts break off in the power head.

I wasn't planning on going that far with this engine. I have two of these motors. One had a broken tiller(at the housing and not repairable without welding)but a "good" power head and the other had a frozen power head but a good "body" so i swapped the power heads. I was hoping thats all i'd have to do, but the so called good power head is what i'm messing with now...I feel like I'm soooo close to having a good motor that it's driving me batty!

Monte1961 · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

Dumb question, have you tried adjusting your low idle jet setting? Seat it gently, back out 1 1/2 turns and start from there.

jrs_diesel · May 24, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

Yes I am buying new pistons, rings, and circlips for my project. Not to mention new gaskets for the powerhead, paint, and parts to reseal the lower unit, rebuild the water pump and do a shaft conversion (long to short). I'm still a bit suprised that this thing even fired with some fuel squirted in it.

I'm sure you saw that spring seal that seals the bottom of the crankshaft. Hopefully your's is still intact. Mine was not. If that fails, then that can lean out the lower cylinder, and leak water in.

I have a sneaking suspicion that your problem may lie with the low compression, or possibly deeper in the motor.

Check out this site:

http://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/OMC/OMC info.htm

That gentleman posts here (the machinist) and has made an excelent website dealing mostly with the 9.9/15 hp series, but also some other small outboards, including our 6 HP engines.

scott_maier · May 25, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

Monte1961 said:
Dumb question, have you tried adjusting your low idle jet setting? Seat it gently, back out 1 1/2 turns and start from there.

Yup. I'm doing that.

scott_maier · May 25, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

jrs_diesel said:
Yes I am buying new pistons, rings, and circlips for my project. Not to mention new gaskets for the powerhead, paint, and parts to reseal the lower unit, rebuild the water pump and do a shaft conversion (long to short). I'm still a bit suprised that this thing even fired with some fuel squirted in it.

I'm sure you saw that spring seal that seals the bottom of the crankshaft. Hopefully your's is still intact. Mine was not. If that fails, then that can lean out the lower cylinder, and leak water in.

I have a sneaking suspicion that your problem may lie with the low compression, or possibly deeper in the motor.

Check out this site:

http://www.sschapterpsa.com/ramblings/OMC/OMC info.htm

That gentleman posts here (the machinist) and has made an excelent website dealing mostly with the 9.9/115 hp series, but also some other small outboards, including our 6 HP engines.

I rechecked the compression last night. I had 80-85 psi on each cylinder, sprayed sea foam in and the reading didn't change. So I think the compression is ok. I think with these little motors 80psi should work, plus both cylinders are pretty much the same. I could have a leak down problem i suppose...

I also took of the the intake manifold. I couldn't believe i actually got it off without breaking a screw or removing the power head. I had to use a 1/4" drive socket wrench with a screw driver bit in it to get em off. I think I'll replace them with socket head cap screws, straight blade screws should be outlawed! The leaf/reed valves were not broken, but one half of one was not laying flat against the plate. Plus the plate was scratched up and dirty. I think someone over the past 30 years tried sanding that plate. I'm going to polish it up on a granite block with high grit sandpaper and get some new leafs/reeds.

Yeah, i've been to that guys website before. Good info on setting the points.

jrs_diesel · May 25, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

Good, that pressure should be adequate for it to run properly, based on what I've read here.

Yeah, I don't like how they used straight blade screws either. In my rebuild, I am replacing every one of those with a hex head unless it needs a round headed screw.

Looks like you found your problem

Hope it runs well after you fix the reed plate.

handirifle · May 25, 2011

Re: 6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

I have a 72, 6hp Johnson as well, runs like top after the carb and fuel pump rebuild. But on occasion, it does want to jump around a bit (firing miss) during slow trolling runs. Not always, one time it's smooth as silk, next run it misses a bit. Am I possibly looking at a crudded up piston/head situation as well?

By the way, I noticed someone a few posts up mentioned to be sure to replace the cork float. I second this big time. Mine gave me fits until I got a kit with the new float, and that fixed it right up.

The little motor actually gets my 12ft Sears Alum boat up to plane, with me sittn in the back bench.

6hp johnson, 1974, water dripping from shifter handle

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