Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

G

Guest

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I was thinking :confused: yesterday that if you were in smaller boats say 22' to 28' do you really need or want to have a radar system on it? Or would you say it's more a luxurious splurge?
I do know that if you were to venture out in bad weather or at night it would help a lot.

But do you really want to spend that kind of money on it and would the benifits be that much more?
 

arks

Lieutenant Commander
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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

IMO it depends primarily on the geographic area and conditions where you do your boating.
If you frequent areas that see a lot of fog or reduced visibility then yes, it's definitely a worthy investment.
OTOH if you boat in protected waters mostly during daylight hours and in decent weather then no, radar isn't needed. Yeah I know- even then there may be times radar would be valuable, but it's not a requirement.
That said, I boat in protected waters and do have radar. In my case the boat came equipped with it already installed. Sure is nice to have but there's no way I'd spend $1-2K to have it!
BTW, any vessel that has radar is required to have it on and operating when making headway (in US waters).
 
G

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

Thanks arks I had no idea as to the cost or anything. I live in the Lakes Erie, St. Clair area of Ontario Canada and we do see our share of dense fogs/light rain, that can come up real fast at times. I was going to wait untill I get a larger boat in a couple of years and maybe put it on that one as I plan to do some cross lake trips to the US then. Thanks for the heads up about it having to be on when in the US. Happy boating :cool:
 

dan t.

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

I have a 24 fter with radar, saved my butt a few times, woke up to fog like pea soup. A gps plotter will tell you where you are but it wont tell you what else is out in the soup. I would say go for it, you can always transfer it to your next boat
 

jhebert

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

I do not need RADAR on my 24-foot boat.

I do not believe there is any regulation that requires RADAR to be turned on when a boat is underway. However, I would change my mind if someone could cite a specific section of the laws of the United States that said this. I await such a citation.
 

dingbat

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

I do not believe there is any regulation that requires RADAR to be turned on when a boat is underway. However, I would change my mind if someone could cite a specific section of the laws of the United States that said this. I await such a citation.

Rules #5 and #7 address the issue.

At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances.

Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar?

RULE 7
RISK OF COLLISION

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:

Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.

Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.

Rule 5
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
 

dbkerley

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

I will be adding radar to mine at a later date. I want to know what is out there. I will be boating at night from time to time and I want to spot the birds to know where the fish are (maybe).
 

sasto

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

I consider radar as an important safety device. Good for tracking other vessel, approaching storms, and birds feeding while fishing.

That said...there have been a few times when I left the dock in undesireable conditions due to the fact the radar would help guide me....this would put me in an unsafe condition.

If it is within your boat budget, I would go for it.
 

dingbat

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

It depends on how and where you boat.

For me, radar on my 22? boat is a requirement. I boat in adverse weather conditions and in very heavily congested areas. Having a fog bank roll in while you?re fishing with 100 of your closet friends within a 5 square miles area in a major shipping channel with isn't a good feeling in its self. Throw in a passing freighter, or two as is sometimes the case, things can get hairy in a hurry.

Driving 3.5 hours pulling a boat only to have to sit at the dock 1/2 the day waiting for the fog to clear certainly isn?t fun. I also boat in areas that are prone to thunderstorm activity. Having thunderstorms in the area and you have no idea if you?re in the path of one isn?t much fun either. I?ve use radar more than once to dodge storms.

We also run a lot at night. A run in with an unmarked vessel, a tug line or wrapping a crab pot in the middle of the night can have deadly consequences. Not to mention radar makes a great fishing tool. Makes it nice to be able to see where the fleet is at any given time.
 

jhebert

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

I was already familiar with the Rules of the COLREGS. The COLREGS are:

"The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972 (COLREGS) are published by the International Maritime Organization (IMO), and set out the "rules of the road" to be followed by ships and other vessels at sea."

Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea

They bind vessels of all countries who subscribe to them, so the fellow who suggested that these rules applied "if in the United States" must have been talking about something else.

I see goofy boaters running around in perfectly clear weather during daylight with their RADAR turning. They're probably paying no attention to it. I wish they would turn it off. One day while in a canal system (in Ontario's RIDEAU CANAL) we were stuck transiting a bunch of locks with a gold-plated 45-footer who was running his RADAR. Hello? During daylight and fair weather in a canal where the channel is only 75-feet wide and you proceed 100-feet from lock to lock you do not need RADAR to prevent collisions. He was probably similarly misinformed that it was "a regulation" that he operate the RADAR when underway.

I would like someone to direct me to any Coast Guard investigation or inquiry in which a recreational vessel in the 22 to 28-foot range was ever cited or fined or in anyway admonished for not having his RADAR turned on while underway during daylight and fair weather. Or cite any common law or statute that explicitly says you must operate the RADAR at all times when underway no matter what the conditions, visibility, and traffic.

Also, in regard to the need for RADAR due to fog: I have been boating in northern Lake Huron for over 20 years. We usually spend two to three weeks cruising each summer. I can only recall one single day when we had a fog in the morning. It lifted by noon.
 

arks

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

They bind vessels of all countries who subscribe to them, so the fellow who suggested that these rules applied "if in the United States" must have been talking about something else.
No, just that I wasn't positive about other countries' requirement concerning radar and didn't want to put the wrong info out there.

I would like someone to direct me to any Coast Guard investigation or inquiry in which a recreational vessel in the 22 to 28-foot range was ever cited or fined or in anyway admonished for not having his RADAR turned on while underway during daylight and fair weather. Or cite any common law or statute that explicitly says you must operate the RADAR at all times when underway no matter what the conditions, visibility, and traffic.
Dingbat covered it- rule#7 part (b): "Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational".
The way I've always read it the word SHALL makes radar use a requirement if you have it.
 

jhebert

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

That qualifier "proper use" leaves open to debate when it is proper. It certainly is not proper to use RADAR when one has unlimited visibility in daylight. In unlimited visibility and daylight it is much better to get your head out of the RADAR display and look around the boat as a means of locating other boats.

In terms of a 22 to 28-foot recreational boat, I see nothing that explicitly says I would have to turn on the RADAR whenever I am underway no matter what the conditions. I would turn on a RADAR when I can make proper use of it, which would be at night, in a fog, or when looking for targets at long distances which cannot be see by eye. Not in daylight and unlimited visibility.

Boaters that tell other boaters they must turn on their RADAR need to find something more concrete than the COLREGS to convince me. Again, show me a published Coast Guard investigation where the investigation found a 22 to 28 foot recreational vessel to be negligent because it was not operating its RADAR in daylight and unlimited visibility conditions.

Another silly thing is the use of the so-called RADAR reflector gizmos, some of which have been found to be anything but. I see sailboats with them hoisted in their rigging. Recent tests showed the more common (and less expensive) ones to not produce a RADAR cross section that was considered sufficient.

Cf.: http://setsail.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/radar_reflectors.pdf

This report came out after the sailboat OUZO was run down in the English Channel by a large ship--which could not see the sailboat on its RADAR.

Cf.: http://setsail.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/maib_ouzo.pdf

I also would be quite worried about navigating in a fog in my 24-foot low-profile fiberglass boat with some other boaters blasting along at 35-MPH with their RADAR going. There is little chance they'll see me, but they probably think their RADAR is going to save the day for them.

The Canadian Coast Guard Cutter GRIFFON ran down the fishing vessel CAPTAIN K in a fog on 18 March 1991 in Long Point Bay, Lake Erie. Three crewmen died on the fishing vessel. The GRIFFON was operating at full speed at the time of collision.

Very interesting reading at:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/marine/precedentes-earlier/m91c2004/m91c2004.asp

Then there is the famous radar-assisted collision of the ANDREA DORIA and STOCKHOLM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Andrea_Doria

Also, consider the weather in the area of interest, Lake St. Clair or Lake Erie. This area ranks among the least likely areas in the United States to have fog. See:

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/101/mwr-101-10-0763.pdf

In sum, I don't have RADAR, I don't feel I need RADAR, and I worry about people who have RADAR and go blasting around in daylight with their RADAR turned on. I hope they're actually maintaining a lookout.
 

NSBCraig

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

weird side discussion

If you don't want to then don't turn it on, noone's going board your boat and beat you up or anything.

Doesn't mean it's not a law though.
 

jhebert

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

"Doesn't mean it's not a law though."

I am afraid no one has established in any reasonable way that there is a law in the United States that if your 22 to 28-foot recreational boat has a RADAR set it must be operational before you can get underway. I am still waiting for a pointer to a CFR citation that says something like that. Or perhaps a state law. Or perhaps a local law. Anyone have a cite?
 

NYBo

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

No such Federal requirement for recreational boats.
 
G

Guest

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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

WOW I really didn't mean to stur up that much trouble with such an innocent question about radar :eek: Maybe I should have just asked if anyone liked having it on thier boats instead :redface:

Or on second tought maybe there were others out there that needed to know exactly what is what when it comes to wheather or not you realy need to have it from a stand point of cost over safety/servivabilty if bad sea conditions sneak up on you as they have a tendancy to do when you aren't paying attention to the skys!


Anyways people just remember this" If you stand there long enough looking at it someone will come along to show you how and do it for you"! :cool:
 

JBF 1962

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Oct 29, 2010
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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

Great thread on radar, as usual, very educating. I agree it's a necessity on large bodies of water, such as the Great Lakes in Rics case
 

Hank496

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Jun 13, 2010
Messages
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Re: Radar Do you need it or not? Want feedback!

We boaters operate in a world of shared liability. If you have radar and are not using it and a collision happens, then there is partial fault on your part because you were not doing everything within your ability to prevent a collision. If your radar is operating and a collision happens, you still have to prove you were blindsided to be 100% clear. But at least you are not starting from a position of guilt to begin.
 
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