carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Hi all. So after getting my new/old '61 QD-22 10 hp up and running again.....Well I had it running anyway. Got it to fire up last night, then went to "fine tune" the carb today and opnened up a whole can of worms.
After many, many tries I eventually got her to fire up again, but she would only stay running when the throttle in the "START" position, but if I come off the throttle into the "SHIFT" position she konks out :/ I tried every combo of needle settings, but can only get it to fire once in every 40-50 pulls. After all that I figured it was a fuel/carb issue.
So I figured I should start over. I re-rebuilt the carb, which is now emaculate, added new plugs, new gas, re-gaped points, new impeller, etc......Once she's running she's smooth, but will only run at fairly high rpm in "START position :/ I've tried tweaking the hi/lo needles once she's running, but every time I decrease the throttle she dies and it takes many, many pulls to start again. As it is I have the hi speed (lower) needle out 3-4 turns (a lot, I know) while the lo speed (upper) needle is only out about 1/2 turn. I know those aren't "right", but it's the only way I can get her to run :/
Help!!!! I'm desperate.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Assuming the piston rings/cylinder/compression is good, fuel pump is good, then it's kinda tough if you don't have a shop manual for this motor? that might give you the initial, ball-park carb settings, just to get it going. Fuel/air in the correct proportions, compression, spark at the right time, and she'll run! I'd put all the needles in their most center positions to start with, carb float chamber with gas up to some reasonable/normal level? All carb jets/passages are open and clean? Good luck and keep at it!...

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

You've properly tested spark and compression too right? This is coming from someone who's made his share of mistakes in diagnosing a problem.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

yeah. I'm pretty sure spark is good enough and compression is strong. Once it's running it's sooth and will run for several min. no prob. That makes me think that compression and spark are good. It pumps tons of water thanks to the new waterpump although the exhaust is pretty smokey, so that makes me think it's running rich, which might make it run faster too (?), but I can only seem to get her to run with the funkyneedle positions I mentioned above and if I come off the throttle from the START position it konks as if it's having a lean "snezze", which doesn't make sense b/c then it would be rich and lean at the same time or something, right??? (I'm going mental, I think)
I've seen tons of vids of these little guys and they generally start in 1 or 2 good pulls, but I'm having to do 20-30 :/

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Does the throttle cam under the stator pick up the carb lever/roller it the correct point?called lync and sync. Is the spark strong, should jump about 1/4 to 5/16 blue
with a audible snap.Are the coils in good condition,not discolored or cracked?
The shift reference on the tiller is only a reference point if it will run smoothly at about 700 rpm don't worry about where the pointer is set.How is the compression?
Is the fuel pump working right?

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Don't worry about the smoke. With it in idle and especially after initial start up, a cloud of smoke is pretty normal.

I would start again with the carb adjustment settings. Here is the exact procedure. It sounds to me that you may be too lean on the slow speed setting but the best way to find out is to set the dials properly.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=167352

Once those are set properly (because it doesn't sound like they are now) let us know if it is still acting up.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

I would check spark when it starts shutting off. Maybe a coil going south. What is strong compression, did you put a guage on it or just by feel.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

If your "start" position is a choked or enriched position and it runs there, but when you remove it from "start" and it cuts off, then you have a lean condition caused by faulty carb settings or plugged jets. That should be a clue about making adjustments. I have a 3HP motor that has a carb slide with a needle that drops into the main jet, needle has about 3 or 4 different grooves or settings. Enrichment is a simple guillotine choke plate, dead simple and dependable. Once you get your motor "dialed in', it'll start right up every time, just keep messing with it. Good Luck!

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

If your running in a barrel it will seem very smokey.If it sneezes when it stalls it soulds like a lean problem the idle circuit may still be blocked.Initial idle needle setting is 1 1/8 turn out,high speed is 1/2 turn if it won't start right at those setting
something is messing it up.Have you checked the float level by inverting the carb?
"pretty surespark is good enough" doesn't sound like your too sure about it.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Thanks Steelespike. The lync and sync is working properly. I'll double check the spark tomorrow, but I put new plugs in and can get a nice blue "snap" when I turn the flywheel. The coils and condensers all look great, so I don't think it's a spark issue (jinx). I did try shifting into and out of gear even at the relatively high rpm of the START postion and it went in and out of gear fine, but it scares me a little to do that :/ Fuel pump and compression are fine. Once she's up and running she can go several min drawing fuel all the while. I also installed a new, see-thru inline fuel filter after the fuel pump, so I can see that it's pulling gas very well. It also has a clear, glass bowl on the bottom of the car, which always stays full wen running.
Thaks fo the link Optsy. I'll go over it. I'm prettysure it's a needle thing too, but I just can't seem to get it. Besides pulling your hair out tweaking carbs and such is all part of the "fun" of these old motors any way, right? LOL ! Thanks for all the help.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Hate to throw this in, but is there a chance a crank seal is leaking?
Mike

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Something is buggered in the carb by the sounds of it. When you shift into gear you are putting a load on the motor, upping the fuel requirements so to speak. Having the high speed needle out 4 turns- that's just plain wrong. I have a qd-23, it's turned out a turn and a bit, any more and it will run like crap. Reinvestigate the carb, you used new packing and remembered to install the Boss gasket, used a kit I hope????

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

X2 on the mixture settings...seems kinda far out.

Not sure, but does that motor have a curb idle screw??

Mine was off a few turns when I bought it, and upon messing with it I broke the tip off, (plastic)..actually, funny enough, I like it better this way....I can REEEAAAALLLLYYYYY turn her down to about what seems like 200 RPM before I shift..

You'll get it.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

(Carburetor Adjustments - Two Adjustable N/Vs)
(J. Reeves)

Initial settings are: Bottom high speed = seat gently, then open 1 turn out. Top slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Setting the high and low needle valves properly:

NOTE: For engines that DO NOT have a shift selection, obviously there is no NEUTRAL position. Simply lower the rpms to the lowest setting to obtain the low speed needle valve adjustment.

(High Speed) Start engine (it will run pretty rough), shift into forward gear, take up to full throttle. In segments of 1/8 turn, waiting for the engine to respond between turns, start turning in the bottom high speed needle valve. You'll reach a point whereas the engine will either start to die out or spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the needle valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest setting.

(Low Speed) Slow the engine down to where it just stays running. Shift into neutral. Again in segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the top needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running. Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back. Again, at that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

When you have finished the above adjustments, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

Re: carb is killing me, my back, my knuckles and my motor

Thanks for the help everyone. The "good" spark and compression are anecdotal, but they sure seem strong based on feel and sight. They're as strong as my '66 33hp, which starts if I so much as look at it thanks to all the help I've received here. I'll be sure to start over adjusting the carb. One question though. I noticed that when the bottom (Hi speed) needle when it is twisted out as far as it is, I will get a drop of gas out of it. Only about 1 drop every 2-4 min., but I know it shouldn;t do it at all. I've replaced all the packing from the carb kit that would fit, but I still get a tiny drop of gas:/ Is that enough to keep the motor from starting? Also, assuming the carb is clean, which I'm 99.99999% sure it is, should I assume that it is a compression issue or more likely a spark issue which would prevent the engine from firing ( I know some one will say both, but is one more/less likely to contribute to the motor's inability to fire up?) Thanks again to all who've helped. iboats is AWESOME. I'd be lost without it. Thanks!