Type C vs ATF fluid?

jagboy69 · Aug 14, 2010

I'm about to try starting my 72 65hp evinrude with the selectric shift. I know this thing should use type C gear fluid. I have been unable to find any locally. But I did find this from pennzoil.

Older models (prior to 1978) sometimes require special products. Check
your owner's manual for any models over ten years old. Johnson and Evinrude models with electric shift (1972 and earlier)
and pre-1977 OMC Stern Drive require Pennzoil ATF Automatic Transmission Fluid.

http://www.pennzoil.com/sites/pennzoil-us.donerdigital.com/files/documents/Pennzoil%20Marine%20High%20Viscosity%20Lower%20Unit%20Gear%20Lubricant.pdf

Anyone know anything about this one???? Tranny fluid???
thanks.. Jason

jay_merrill · Aug 14, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

You can still buy the correct gear oil (Type C) from BRP (current owner of "OMC") - its called "Premium Blend."

Yes, you can use ATF, but be sure to buy one that won't cause problems with seals. I've seen the Pennzoil product, but have never used it. I do trust Pennzoil, however, so if they specifically identify OMC hydro-electric shift engines as being compatible, I would have no problem doing so. In fact, I also have a '72 Johnson 65hp, so I'll be interested in what you decide to do.

PS: One thing that is confusing to me about the Pennzoil page that you linked, is that it says that its GL-4 oil (Pennzoil Marine Outboard Gear Lube), is a suitable replacement for OMC "Type C" gear lube. It then goes on to say that 1972 and older OMC models with electric shift, should use Pennzoil ATF Automatic Transmission Fluid. Since the OMC hydro-electric gearcases of any year use "Type C" (now BRP Premium Blend), this seems to be a contradiction.

???

jagboy69 · Aug 14, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

The story gets even stranger... I did find this stuff locally.

http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/C10183.pdf

The application says, "Recommended for use in all outboard and stern drive gear units specifying SAE 90, 80W-90 or 85W-90, including OMC Type ?C.? Includes MerCruiser, OMC Cobra, Volvo stern drives and Mercury, Evinrude, Johnson, Mariner, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Force outboards."

jay_merrill · Aug 14, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Here's the problem, though - Type C gear oil is 80W, not 80-90 or 80-85. Hydro-electric gear cases require a lighter weight oil, because it serves as a hydraulic fluid and it must be "thin enough" for the pump to handle it.

I just tried to call Pennzoil, but the customer service desk is closed until Monday. I think I'll give them a call then.

???

F_R · Aug 14, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Back when OMC was marketing Type C/Premium Blend, they recommended it for ALL their then-current motors, electric shift or not. Later when they went to a heavier oil, they cautioned against using the thick stuff in electric shift. The confusion continues today.

Use Type C (Premium Blend) in electrics, Hi-Vis in others. Or whatever the heck they call it now.

jagboy69 · Aug 14, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Hi Frank and Jay... I was only able to find Citgo supergard marine plus in my little town. Bottle says lower unit premium gear lube. It to says ok for SAE 90, 80w-90 or 85w-90 including OMC type "C".

I drained the LU and filled from the bottom plug until it came out the top. Plugs went back in and fired up the engine. The prop spin for a second and then went into neutral as the engine fired up. Once the motor settled down, I braved FWD. Low and behold it went FWD. I went back to neutral, the prop stopped. Then I tried reverse. Nothing happened. Either this oil is wrong or I have a problem elsewhere. For now, I'm blaming either wiring, solenoid or something. I'm off to search the archives for some troubleshooting "how to's"
Has someone written something like this for the late 1972 65hp?

Jason

Sixmark · Aug 14, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

The ATF in regards to affecting seals would be the Type F ATF, Type F was known to swell seals, thats why some GM owners would put it in their high mileage tranmissions on their cars, in hopes of swelling the seals back up to stop some leaks and get a few extra miles out of it, if you opt to use ATF use the Dexron/Mercon and NOT Type F

jay_merrill · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

This issue of gear oil interests me a lot, because getting BRP Premium Blend is sometimes difficult, for those who are not near a dealer. Its even an issue sometime for those of us who have one near us.

I like to change mine fairly frequently, because I use my motor more than most people do. All of this discussion about lube had me in a mood to change mine today, but I couldn't because my local BRP/Evinrude dealer isn't open on Saturdays. I even wen to a few autro parts store and no one had anything that even claimed to be a Type C equivalent.

As I mentioned before, I'm going to call Pennzoil on Monday, to see if I can get some answers on their product. I'll report back as soon as possible, afterwards.

???

tashasdaddy · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

sierra has TYPE C oil, i have had to switch to that, as the local BRP dealers have quit stocking type C.

lindy46 · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

I get the Sierra Type C at NAPA. They may have to order it, but usually can have it next day.

jagboy69 · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Lindy, any chance you have a part number? I talked to my napa guys yesterday about this oil and well as they say.... "dumb looks are still free"

ezeke · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

If you are dealing with NAPA, use the (Sierra) part number for quarts: 18-9620-2

McGR · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

For what it's worth... I recall reading in the OMC OEM service manual for my '76 85hp that Dextron was an acceptable alternative if type C was not available. This motor had hydro-assist shifting which was sort of a hybrid between electric shifts and the fully mechanical units. After reading this in the manual I decided to go to my local OMC/BRP dealer for the definitive word regarding the proper lubricant. He said that they always used standard hi-vis on these lower units. The dealer who gave me this advise has been an established OMC shop for decades, so I trust his opinion. I took his advice and everything worked just fine. I'm not sure if this advise is applicable to pure electric shifts, but it worked well for on my hydro-mechanical l/u.

jay_merrill · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

I had a similar experience at a NAPA store yesterday - the parts guys had very little idea what I was talking about. The good news is that NAPA has a warehouse about ten miles from where I live, with a parts counter. With the part number info you guys gave, I can most likely get some easily.

As for Hi-Vis in lieu of Type C, I wouldn't trust the dealer's opinion. Every manual that comes with a hydro-electric or hyrdo-mechanical gearbox, specifically states that Type C gear oil is required. The other fluids that we are discussing, are acceptable because they have generally the same characteristics as Type C oil.

???

ezeke · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

If the dealer has been in the business for decades, he should be familiar with the attached service bulletin.

McGR · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

ezeke said:
If the dealer has been in the business for decades, he should be familiar with the attached service bulletin.

... and apparently he was. If you read my earlier message carefully, you'll realize his advise was spot on.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

tx1961whaler · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

The OP was originally concerned about a electric shift motor, and we kind of deviated in the discussion to include hydro-mechanical ones in the mix. Looks like the hydro-mechanical ones (according to the bulletin) can use the hi-vis.
So I guess the rule is: If it has wires running to it, Type C. Everything else Hi-Vis.

jay_merrill · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

That's an interesting SB, because the main difference between the hydro-electric gearbox and the hydro-mechanical version, is the manner in which the poppet valves are actuated. As far as I know, the pump mechanism and general operation are the same. The issue with Hi-Vis v. Type C is the resistence to flow, since the oil acts as a hydraulic fluid. I wouldn't expect that to change from one to the other.

Since this info comes straight from OMC, I'll accept it and stand corrected. The info also explains the contradiction in the statement on the Pennzoil link - having read this, I see exactly where they got their "language" from.

So, it seems that you can use Hi-Vis in a hydro-mechanical gearcase, but not in a hydro-electric gearcase. I'll still check with Pennzoil tomorrow, but I suspect that they will give me the same answer.

One other curiosity that comes up after consideration of all of this, is the use of Type C in a few other OMC outboards. For example, my Johnson 33hp manual says that Type C oil should be used in it. This motor is a purely mechanical type shift - there is no hydraulic mechanism, nor is it electric shift. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

???

McGR · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

Jay - Apparently at one point OMC was recommending type C for the hydro-mechanical units. See attached image... this is scanned from a 1975 85hp service manual. Apparently, at some point they decided to change this requirement for the hydro-mechanical units. Also, it's interesting to note that they stated that Dextron was an acceptable substitute.

ezeke · Aug 15, 2010

Re: Type C vs ATF fluid?

McGR said:
... and apparently he was. If you read my earlier message carefully, you'll realize his advise was spot on.

...............

Not questioning you or your dealer, but addressing the original subject of a 1972 electric shift motor which does require the premium blend or a reasonable substitute.

As to the 1975 85HP service manual, which was produced in calendar year 1974, note the date of the service bulletin.

Type C vs ATF fluid?

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