98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

GatorMike

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Aug 3, 2003
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Over the past couple of weeks I asked a few questions about my powerhead that had rusted up with water in the crankcase. I stopped by the machine shop this afternoon and the machinist said he got the stuck piston out. Before proceeding any further I would like to post everything I know about this crankcase and see if I can get any ideas how the water got into the crankcase that caused the rust. Hope DHadley, Rodbolt or some of the other experts can give me some ideas.

As posted in earlier threads the compression before the engine sat for 9 months was excelent. The last couple of times I used the boat before letting it sit I had noticed rust on the lower left spark plug tip. When I tried to turn it over after sitting 9 months it was froze up. I removed the heads and the top 2 pistons were in the all the way out position, the lower 2 were in at the exhaust ports. I soaked it in various types of penetrating oils for a couple of weeks and still could not break it loose.

I removed the powerhead and opened the crankcase. The piston I expected the most trouble out of came out easy. Once I removed the rodbolts a tap with a mallet and she fell right out. The bore I thought was a little rough with rust around the exhaust ports. The top two pistons were a little harder to get out. I tapped on them a while with a mallet and a block of wood and they both came out slowly. The bores had only a little surface rust that cleaned up nice with a oily rag. The lower right piston was a bear, I could not get it to budge at all. The rod bolts were in a position where I couldn't get to them so I took it to the machine shop and let the guy there get the piston out. He had to press it out but it came out fine. That bore is pretty rough and the piston had white chalky corrosion all over it.

All 4 cylinders were already .0020 over from a previous rebuild. According to the machinist he thought the other 3 are fine as is but the lower right needs to be bored to .0030 or possibly .0040 over.

The rods and crankshaft had only a few spots of surface rust on them that wiped right off and the smooth areas are still shinny with no rust at all. Once the rusty oil was wiped off none of the bearings (which I won't be reusing anyway) showed any sign of rust. None of the piston rings were broken although a couple of them were rusted in place. One of the rings on the crankshaft was broken, I don't know if it was broken before the engine rusted up or if we broke it. Also the rust in the cylinders seemed to be mostly in the bottom 2 and mostly from the exhaust ports back.

So does anything I have posted give us any clues as to where the water got into the crankcase?
 

SparkieBoat

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Aug 17, 2009
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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

could be a hair crack in the cylinder wall..i have heard of cracks that only leak at high RPMs...so other than the head gasket I could not think of any other entry point. I have heard that a engine shut down at WOT and then a check of the plugs will help determine this kind of hairline crack. Did the engine skip or miss any at high RPMS?
 

Faztbullet

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

Its odd that it was #3 cylinder that stuck worse than others, if it was just on the lower 2 cylinders I would lean toward the lower crank seals or housing as a problem. Being that it was all cylinders I would check the oil tank for water as these years was bad about this, if OK check exhaust gaskets and "bubble" real good for crack or leakage, also check fuel for water..it could have been do to ethanol fuel and it drew moisture from the air.
 

emdsapmgr

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

Water in the powerhead can come from a faulty head gasket, leaking exhaust manifold gasket, casting porosity in the inner exhaust manifold, water in fuel or oil tank. You need to inspect all of these, perhaps including dumping any fuel in the tank, and the oil tank. Get a true straight edge and make sure the inner exhaust manifold is not warped as well as the heads. Exhaust water leaks tend to affect the two lower cyls more. How was the torque on the exhaust manifold bolts when you disassembled?
 

GatorMike

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

Water in the powerhead can come from a faulty head gasket, leaking exhaust manifold gasket, casting porosity in the inner exhaust manifold, water in fuel or oil tank. You need to inspect all of these, perhaps including dumping any fuel in the tank, and the oil tank. Get a true straight edge and make sure the inner exhaust manifold is not warped as well as the heads. Exhaust water leaks tend to affect the two lower cyls more. How was the torque on the exhaust manifold bolts when you disassembled?

I am begining to believe the inner exhaust manifold may be the culprit. 90% of the rust I found was in the bottom 2 cylinders from the exhaust ports back. The inner exhaust manifold has some large pitting along the center part of it on the mateing surface. I did not check the torque on the bolts when I removed it though. I don't think the head gaskets were leaking, there is no evidence that would lead me to believe they were anyway. The oil tank is out of the question since I mix my gas and oil. I don't think it came from the fuel tank for 2 reasons, I have a good fuel/water separator and also the last time I used the boat was on vacation and I ran 2 full tanks of gas through the thing that week so I imagine any water in the fuel would have been burned up.

Now I am going to ask a few additional questions. I will try to keep all my questions about my rebuild in this thread unless you guys think I should ask each question in a separate thread.

With the economy the way it is and my job not real secure right now I am going to try to get away as cheap as possible on this one. The last 2 rebuilds I did I replaced everything but this time I plan on only replacing what I have to. I have more time than money right now.

1) The machine shop said 3 of the cylinders shouldn't need boreing so I think I will just have the one bored out. There shouldn't be a problem having the 3 good cylinders at their current .0020 over and the 4th at .0040 over should it? This will save me the cost of buying 3 pistons.

2) None of the piston rings were broken although a couple were stuck. If I am reusing 3 of the original pistons in their original bores do I need to replace the rings even though they are not broken?

That is it for now. Thanks.
 

lake racer

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May 22, 2009
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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

Is this a saltwater use motor ?
 

trendsetter240

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

1) The machine shop said 3 of the cylinders shouldn't need boreing so I think I will just have the one bored out. There shouldn't be a problem having the 3 good cylinders at their current .0020 over and the 4th at .0040 over should it? This will save me the cost of buying 3 pistons.

2) None of the piston rings were broken although a couple were stuck. If I am reusing 3 of the original pistons in their original bores do I need to replace the rings even though they are not broken?

1) No problem at all having 3 @ .020 and 1 @ .040. It's done all the time. In fact my recent rebuild I did the same.

2) I would replace all the rings. You are already saving a bundle by re-using 3 pistons. Rings themselves are not that expensive. Consider the amount of money and time you will have to put in if one breaks.

Good luck on your rebuild. Post lots of pics and ask lots of questions. :)
 

ezeke

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Sep 19, 2003
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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

Be sure to replace the rod cap screws with new.

You could have gotten enough water from condensation, especially if the motor was stored tilted and without adequate fogging.

Be careful when using muffs that you don't put too much pressure on the water line.
 

GatorMike

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

Lake Racer, yes it is a saltwater use motor.

Zeke, I don't think the water hose pressure would be it because I have lived in this house for 25 years and always owned a boat, used the same hose bib all that time and never had a problem before. As for condensation I have multiple reasons not to suspect that too. The main one being I have owned this boat since 2003 and had other boats that I parked in the same location for the past 25 years and never had a condensation problem before. Keep in mind I knew I had a rust problem for several weeks before I put the boat up and let it sit for 9 months because I check/clean the spark plugs before every time I go out and I kept finding rust on the tip of that lower left spark plug. That is why I was shocked that the lower right was the one with the rustiest cylinder, I never suspected it.

Since someone mentioned the porosity of the inner exhaust manifold I am pretty confident that was the problem area. I will try to get a picture of it to post later but the mateing surface of it looks to have some pretty major pits in it. I am going to try to find a replacement for that inner manifold.
 

ezeke

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

I've already mentioned most of the other possibilities in my earlier response to your queries, so those were just additional possibilities.
 

GatorMike

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

image1.jpg

Here is a picture of that inner exhaust manifold. The pitted area is just below the center long bolt hole. Hope this picture works, I may have to experiment a little to learn how to post pictures here.
 

mikesea

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

there are a few possibilities how water got in.I worked for 2 powerhead rebuilders in Fl.on the 4 cyl xflows ,we found water passage leaks in some of the exhust areas .Im trying to visulize right now by memory,but,inside the exhust area of the block,toward bottom,you will see triangulay shaped castings,it might be hard to find if its there ,but in the crease we have found hirline cracks that open and allow cooling water to infultrate the exhust area.Not a very common problem but it does happen and we had the cracks welded,you may need to make a cleaning brush ,or use an awl to scrape any carbon build up,OMC engine tuner breaks that stuff up and a spray cleaner helps afte that.i also know the welder used a dye type stuff that showed the crack better.This may not be you problem ,but if it is and goes un-noticed ,you will b back to square one again,How long ago was it since rebuild?it may be the original problem.Also be sure to check all ports in the cyl sleeves for cracks between ports,on the headside of the block check you dont have any pitting or missing alum around the sleeve.over time the alum cam corrode away making sealing difficult,if there is a problem there,you will need what is called a flanged sleeve,some TRY t fix with epoxy or welding,IT FAILS sooner or later,check all your mating surfaces on block and exhust covers,any pitting,change the covers,we have successfully cleaned some pitting in these areas with epoxy like JB weld,but,I would suggest a welder build up and have it decked down,better to spend the $$ once,good luck
 

GatorMike

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

How long ago was it since rebuild?it may be the original problem.

The original rebuild was around 2002 or 3. It was a different problem, the boat was only 3 years old when I got it, the original owner used the hell out of it and never decarbed it. That time it was low compression and bad scoreing in the lower left Cylinder that was the problem. The original owner was a good friend and I bought the boat for almost nothing with the intention of rebuilding the motor.
 

emdsapmgr

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

I'd be looking for a leak on the inner exhaust manifold. I'd lay the inner manifold flat on a table, with the exhaust side up. Then fill it with water and check for leaks. If there is casting porosity, you can have it welded at any shop that does aluminum welding.
 

GatorMike

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

I haven't posted in a few days because I am waiting on the rest of my parts to come in. Anyway today I was cleaning up some of the old parts and was wondering. Is it common in an engine like mine that had water in the crank for some of the rings to be stuck in their grooves. Some were free, some were stuck and I have one that I have been soaking in oil trying to get it unstuck so I can remove the old ring. Anybody ever dealt with this and how did you get the stuck ring to break free?
 

mikesea

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

very common,I would think if they were that stuck ,your pistons may be junk,you should think hard about putting new piston sets in and boring to next oversize,thats best way to do it
 

daselbee

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Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

It is not clear...but I think he may be talking about the crankshaft sealing rings. How about it OP? Piston rings or crank sealing rings?
 

GatorMike

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Messages
902
Re: 98 Crossflow 115, got the stuck piston out--starting my rebuild

No it was piston rings. I soaked them overnight in PBblaster and they came unstuck. Tomorrow night I will clean up the grooves and see how they look.

The crankshaft was pretty much rust free so the seal rings were good except for the one I broke while trying to get the last piston out.
 
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