When installing new impeller question?

I have a 85HP force/chrysler motor and believe it is a 1989. Bought this boat last month that had been sitting for four years, took to shop and had mechanic look at. He said he checked compression and everthing worked out and the only thing he ad to do to get it to run was diconnect the kill switch.

He took it out and everything worked beautifully and then he took it back in for other repairs not related to engine. When he started out to delliver next time the hot horn went off immediately when he got in water so he took it back and put new impeller on. When I got the boat and ran it I would hear a loud knocking sound every so often as if i had hit a log and i know i did not. So i started to watch what the motor was doing to see if it was knocking on the boat, what i noticed was that when I would stop the motor would move back down quickly towards the transom. I called the mechanic and discussed this with him and he said that when he tested the boat out on first time he never heard it do anything like that, so for me I am trying to figure out what is different now. I think after impellar install he just brought it over to deliver and did not lake test again. I also noticed that when saw him and dad testing boat out that they were running at high speeds and to me he might not have heard if going that fast. I drive alot slower because I fish alot, which could be difference.

So he comes out and him and my dad go out in it to test it because there are other issues going on too, when he came in he said that he only heard it thump once and that it was a gear and he adjusted it out on the water. So he leaves. Then I get in the boat next day try to start and the boat is dead, call him and he says put handle back into reverse just a little and move forwardd to pop it back into neutral, which worked. Then when I took it out i could not get the handle to go down further to go 30 miles an hour. Also after he made this adjustment the the knocking got worse and was doing it while in idle or maybe in reverse some it could have been out of wack and i was a little in reverse, the only time it had made thump or knock sound before was after acceleration.

So here is my question, could the boat already have been this way when purchased or did the shift linkage get out of wack during impellar installation? Should he come back and readjust free of charge, I would like to be educated more before I talk to him again. I did tell him that it got worse and asked if i could just adjust myself and he said a little complicated. I asked him what he adjusted and what cable and then asked him what direction, he seemed to act like he could not remember which way he adjusted but then told me to shorten the cable, which I have no idea how to do. He seemed to want to point at bad gear and he could be right i just do not know because he brought up gear oil issue and i reminded him again that we checked the gear oil before giving to him and no water or metal shards in it.

Re: When installing new impellar question?

Re: When installing new impellar question?

Here is picture of top part of motor. I would like to know which red one is the shifter(i think top red cable), and what other red cable is for and then what the top shorter silver rod that is tilted is called?

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Karla, Karla, Karla, Your right there! All it takes is a manual and most of your problems could be solved by you. Take the mechanics pay and take the boat to the nearest waterfront casino. Seriously,manuals are worth their weight in cigarettes. The top red cable is the shifter. The lower red cable is the throttle. The silver bar is activated by the throttle cable. Don't know what it's called. Manual is the answer. Did I mention manual?

Re: When installing new impeller question?

yes but only once. well i was hoping someone could step me through this instead of waiting for a manual. I really do not have much experience with engines. I had to leave my fathers, I do not live there and I am am hoping I can get back there next week. I still would like to know if installing a impeller involves anything that would cause the shifting gears to get out of whack. The mechanic has also said he would come back out but my dad wants to wait until i am there. I feel I need to educate myself if i am going to have to keep talking to him until things get fixed. The question is do I want this guy to continue to work on boat or not, i really do not want to have to go behind him, i am just not qualified. It has taken me alot of time just to figure out what was going on and to try and understand things and all the reading and researching has really made me feel burnt out. To top it off when I was there it was 105 degrees outside and the humidity was unbelieveable.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

It could--COULD be a broken tooth on the forward gear, but I doubt it. It is far more likely that the dog clutch in the lower unit is out of adjustment. The drive dogs may be jumping out of engagement causing a loud thumping noise.

Contrary to popular opinion, this is usually not a shift cable adjustment. The linkage itself needs to be adjusted and yes it is a bit complicated, but you do seem to have command of the english language and following manual instructions should not be difficult. The difficult part is that the adjusting nuts are under the bottom carb and are difficult to reach with a wrench.

The silver rod with two black plastic ball ends is the throttle cam link. It pushes the carbs open when you advance the throttle lever. Red cables are aftermarket Teleflex control cables--an upgrade from the standard black ones. Top cable is shift and bottom cable is throttle.

Until you do get a manual, search threads here to find shift linkage adjustment. I am sure there should be a couple of posts about it. If not, come back and I will give instructions. Too late tonight--2AM NITE!

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Okay are you saying that the shift cable adjustment is complicated or are you talking about the dog or the dog gear adjustment is complicated. I know what you mean by the carb thing because the mechanic told me to adjust carbs one day and I was not able to do 3rd one because did not have a screw driver short enough for me to get in the carb.
ARe you saying I can adjust the dog gear from the upper part of the motor?

Okay you say the loud knock sound could be come from dog gear, would this also cause the motor to fall and knock on transom when I slow down or stop.

IF it is out of adjustment could it have happened when he replaced the impellar? I have a feeling that if i took this to another mechanic it would be fairly costly to open up the lower unit. I was told that when he adjusted the shift linkage the other day it sounded like he adjusted in wrong direction which made knocks happen more often and problem worse than before so could this effect the timing with the dog gears? I reallly have already done searches and have spent hours on trying to figure out how to adjust, there are posts but they are not detailed enought and I think the people are better educated than me so I would really like if you could give me some help. Oh i forgot to say that when he test drove the boat before adjustment he was able to get it to run at higher than 30mph so this leads me to beleive it came from the adjustment he made while out on the lake. I am really hoping it is not a broken tooth. The difference between his first lake test when he did not hear any knocks is that an impeller was replaced. I do think he is willing to come back out and adjust but do not know if he is going to charge us because he thinks it is bad gear.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

I can see by your reply that you know very little about these engines so the mechanic has you at a disadvantage. This is not acceptable.

First off, since you do not have an adequate knowledge of these engines you should not be messing with the carbs--this is a fast ride to major damage. Not trying to scare you, just stating facts as I have seen them over and over.

Once you get a manual, and see some drawings, everything becomes simple and usually understandable. However, since I have lots of trouble posting photos (My VCR is still blinking 12:00) I will need to take the long verbal route to guide you.

The forward gear is in the nose of the lower unit and the reverse gear is toward the prop. In between there is a thing called the dog clutch. It is called this because it has projections or "dogs" on each side to mate with the respective gear. It is splined to the prop shaft and depending upon which gear the dogs engage, the shaft will turn clockwise or counterclockwise.

The gears themselves are not connected to the prop shaft but spin freely around it constantly. The pinion gear connected to the drive shaft on top of them is constantly mated to them and drives them continuously while the engine is running.

The dog clutch slides between these gears and while the engine is in neutral, the dogs have clearance between both gears. The linkage moves the dog clutch to engage the dogs on either gear.

NOW: If the linkage is set so the dog clutch is not centered between the gears, then when it is engaged in one gear, it will not be fully engaged and will "pop" out. At speed, this will cause a loud thump and the engine will "jump" on the transom.

SO: The first thing to check is the linkages to see if everything is centered.

While the boat is on the trailer, move the control handle from forward to reverse and back to neutral (straight up) to ensure everything is centered. Take off the engine cover and look at the shift linkage where the cable is attached to it. Look at the throttle cable where it attaches to the tower. You will see two flat plates that have a gap of 1/8 inch or less between them. When you start the engine in fast idle or warm-up position, these plates touch and limit how far the throttles can open, limiting the RPM the engine can turn in neutral. These two plates should be even with each other If the forward plate is higher or lower than the plate on the throttle tower, then the cables need to be adjusted to bring them even with each other. The cam on the shift lever ("U" shaped metal lever) needs to be depressing the white button on the brown neutral interlock switch. This allows the starter to turn. If the button is not depressed, the solenoid will not close and the starter motor will not crank the engine.

Now, spin the prop by hand. It should not lock up and there should be no clicking noises when you spin it. If it does click, then the dog clutch is not centered and the shift linkage needs to be adjusted. This can not be adjusted on the water so your mechanic did something else.

There are two ways to do this: The easy way and Frank's way. I prefer Frank's way but will describe both to you.

The easy way is to look at the area where the engine is attached to the transom. Below the clamps and under the lower engine mount you will see a 1/4 inch rod exiting the casting and held into a cylinder by a pin and cotter. If you remove the cotter and pin, the rod is now free to be screwed in or out.

Since moving the rod down selects forward gear, Screwing the rod out or up will bias the linkage more toward forward when it is pushed down to line up the holes again. Be careful and move it only 1/2 turn at a time. A little goes a long way. So, adjust and replace the pin and check, then adjust again until you get positive engagement in forward yet no noise in neutral, and positive engagement in reverse.

Now: Frank's way. Since this rod is screwed into the linkage inside the lower unit, I like to screw it all the way in then out only enough to line up the holes for the pin.

Then, below the carbs there is a rod held to the linkage with two nuts. It is difficult to get a wrench on these nuts but again, lowering this rod will bias the whole linkage toward forward. The top nut needs to be loosened, and the bottom nut run up to the plate and tightened. When doing this, the battery must be disconnected because it is easy to touch the hot terminal on the solenoid with the wrench and spark badly.

Whichever method you choose, Biasing toward reverse is just the opposite.

NOW: After all this, there is a possibility that the drive dogs are worn and the engine is popping out of gear for that reason. No amount of adjustment will stop this. The lower unit needs to be disassembled and the drive dogs on the clutch and gears need to be refaced. Look up Tjello if this is the case. He does resurface them.

Do not become disheartened. Disassembly and reassembly is relatively easy. If you have the skills to operate a computer and have basic understanding of use of hand tools, with the instructions in a manual, it is not difficult.

NOW: Back to carbs. They should be started by screwing in the needles on the front (or side) all the way until they seat lightly. DO NOT FORCE THEM. Then back out all three 1 1/4 turns. Start the engine (preferably in the water) and adjust each carb in turn 1/8 of a turn in and wait until the engine stabilizes. Do this in steps and RPM will increase until you get to a point where it will either slow down or the engine will stall. Now go back and go the other direction until the engine slows or lopes. proper setting is between the two extremes. No matter what, the usual setting comes out to around one turn out on all three carbs. NEVER set them leaner than 3/4 turn out. This will lead to detonation and piston damage. The bottom carb can be reached with a long screwdriver by lifting the hood gasket. There is a small hole in the front of the engine under this gasket for access.

After adjusting the carbs, take the boat out on the water and accelerate full throttle from a stop. If the engine accelerates smoothly it is set correctly. If it sags then picks-up and goes, it is too lean. Unscrew the needles 1/8 turn at a time until it accelerates with no hesitation. If if bobbles then clears itself and accelerates, it is too rich. Screw in the needles 1/8 turn at a time until it accelerates smoothly. IN any case, again, NEVER set the needles leaner than 3/4 turns out from lightly seated.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Well I thought he adjusted the shift link cable on top of motor like in the picture i have posted. When he told me I needed to shorten this cable, he said that is what he adjusted and now needed to be adjusted again, he said he was not able re-adjust because he could not get it do it again(i.e. be in neutral when handle is in reverse position). I guess he just messed with the part right below carbs, who knows. I did mention to him that I had read that the controls are very sensitive.

I do have the 85hp owners manual and it has a section that discusses installation of shift assembly control cable and the the other control cables on upper unit but pictures are very small. So i guess what you are saying is that the replacement he did on the impeller would not cause the gears to get out of adjustment? yes or no? I may not be able to get this done myself so I need to be able to go back to him and say to please adjust so Forward/Reverse/Neutral are right, as for the dog gear issue, well that would not be his fault but i have to look at the fact that he said everything was fine at first and then I think about what has changed since then, impeller installation and the only other thing that done in lower area is a stingray stabilizer was put on. We were having problems in that when boat would plane out it would lean tilt very far to right, mechanic said seemed to get worse after stingray install but he as not sure because it had not driven boat enough. When i got it and drove for first time and it was doing this I told my dad that it seemed dangerous because if water got wavy boat could capsize, we did try some weight distibution and it helped some. He told us that it was unequal weight distribution in the boat.

I have no idea when he noticed that you have to put in reverse sometimes and back to forward to put in neutral, i just know that during lake test he was able to get handle down far enought to go above 30mph and now I cannot get it to go down far enough to go 30mps. So if he did not do any adjusments when came out and it thuds started getting worse my thought is that maybe gear is gettting worse.

Which manual should i buy and where?

Stingray stabilizer was also put on could this cause problems too

Stingray stabilizer was also put on could this cause problems too

Stingray stablizer was put on could that cause shifting gear to get out of wack?

Stingray stabilizer was also put on could this cause problems too

Stingray stabilizer was also put on could this cause problems too

okay i just went and did some research on stingray stabilizers that was installed and this is what i found and maybe this is part of problem:


Using a product often referred to as a stabilizer fin is a modification of the gearcase that may change the manner in which the boat operates on the water. With the unit trimmed fully down (in or under), a reduction of the time necessary to get a boat on plane may result. However, some V-bottom boats using a stabilizer fin may exhibit a tendency to roll over far to one side as soon as planing occurs. The direction and degree of the roll will be dictated by prop rotation, weight distribution, and degree of trim under. The boat roll can cause passengers to be ejected!. Trimming up or out can reduce or eliminate the roll. Because it is not possible to know how a given boat will respond to the use of such a product without thorough testing Mercury cannot recommend that such products be used or not used. Also, use of these products may cause or contribute to the failure of the anti-ventilation plate on the gearcase. Failures caused, or contributed to, by modification are not covered by the limited warranty.

Could it be new stingray stabilzer compounding the problem?

Could it be new stingray stabilzer compounding the problem?

When first got boat back mechanic told me that i would need to trim motor up some when I drove in order get the boat to not tilt to right when on plane. I tried this and did not notice that it helped any and it was not just a minor tilt to the right it was significant. Enough so that I could imagine that if hit big enough wake the wrong way the boat could flip, so i did not go too fast. After the mechanic came over later in the afternoon I decided to take boat out got almost out of the cove and turned right back aaround when the thud was so bad the boat shook, the water was also not calm at all like before and I started to think it had to do with me turning the boat but not sure. I also think my dad had put the trim up some. After that I called the mechanic again beccause i was starting to think that the motor was loose on the transom or something.

This is a 17 foot aluminum boat and there are jump seats on right mounted on heavy wood decking and then there are not seats on passenger side. After I moved trolling motor battery up to passenger side, put small anchor on passenger side and put trolling motor on bow of boat and took out it seemed to not to tilt as much and I did not trim motor up and there was no thud sounds and it was doing good, then stopped I stopped put trim up just a little and low and behold the knocking came back, but i thought it was just a fluke so ignored. I also asked the mechanic if he thought it might be the prop because I had some vibrating at times that felt like it could be coming from the prop since it has some damage on blades, he did not think so. Maybe this is just a long shot, it could be that the stabilzer is not far enough down it the water or causing alot of water to come over transom and pull motor back down. This may be what caused the shifting gear to get out of wack and I know they need to be adjusted because of the other problems. So does anybody have any knowledge of stabilzer causing problems?

Re: Stingray stabilizer was put on

Re: Stingray stabilizer was put on

ooo

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Sting-ray, hydro-foil, Doel-Fin--all are added to the cavitation plate to hopefully improve performance. Many on this forum think of them as junk or worse. Personally, I believe they may help sometimes. So put on on and try it --if it does not help or if it causes problems, remove it.

Almost nothing you do outside the gearcase will affect the gears and drive dogs, short of running her onto the rocks. They will not "magically" shift out of adjustment although the can wear.

I am a bit puzzled by what you describe as "thumping." If a hull is laid over on its side and hits a wake, it will not cut through cleanly but will pound. So, is the thumping the hull or the engine?

Re: When installing new impeller question?

There is already a stingray on the motor. I was not trying to say that it was the sound of waves hitting the hull, i was trying to say that if your whole boat is leaning badly to one side and a wake comes under it that maybe it could tip the boat over, i know this would be extreme, i was just trying to give idea of what boat was doing. I have been in a boat before when water was very wavy and choppy and the person turned so sharp that water got in the boat on the passenger side. I do not have anything against having the stingray stabilizer on the boat, i am new to this forum and have no idea what other peoples opinions of them are. I had stated earlier that when I slow down to a stop you can see the motor drop back down toward the transom very quickly and i have watched and heard it knock on the boat, the times that i have seen this happen the sound was not as loud and at other times when i have not been looking it has been really loud, it does not sound anything like hitting a wake. It sounds like you have just hit a log or something and it is coming from the back of the boat. I have driven alot of boats before and have never heard these sounds. I have also never been in a boat that was leaning or tilted to the side like this. In the case of the boat i have and with some of the weight distribution problems i was just thinking that the stabilizer could be throwing things off. For all i know the stabilizer could be to high or to low and the only tool i have as an uneducated consumer is to ask people who know so I will not end up spending all kinds of money. I am on a learning curve just like alot of people. If anybody feels they can help please feel free to give me advice, i really need it.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Yes, I understand that the stabilizer came with the boat. But in this case, it seems to be causing more problems than it is helping. I would try removing it and see how the boat gets on plane. Your engine has power trim and tilt. When you slow down, it should not move from its position. This makes me think that a valve or two are bad in either the tilt cylinder or pump. See: If you have a badly leaking valve, If you slow down fast, the water pressure against the prop and lower unit will raise it some. Then, when the pressure stops or you accelerate, the engine will slam down against the trim cylinder causing a very loud thump.

Please, please, please, find someone there in Texas who knows these engines and can help you. Here on the forum we can guide you but sometimes another set of eyes and hands right there is invaluable. If you keep going back to the mechanic, the charges are just going to strangle you. You will quickly become disgusted and just wish to give up the whole boat. That would be a shame.

It is not his fault, he needs to make a living and must charge a fair labor price. (in my area it is now 110 bucks an hour.)

I am curious Karla: are you indeed a woman or girl? If so, how old are you? Do you have a boyfriend or husband?

There is a method to my madness (questions). If I know your status then I can possibly better gauge your capabilities. Women are equally proficient in repair work if they want to be. You mentioned you are small, but size doesn't really matter. If you have a friend, boyfriend or husband to give at least moral support and possibly help with some of the heavier labor and really tight bolts, it is possible for you do do almost any repair on that engine and save quite a few bucks in the process. If, on the other hand, you are a younger girl or a younger boy without access to tools and without resources to get them and parts, you job will be more difficult.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

okay well i think i got the idea somewhere reading on this board that changing a impeller involved disconnecting the shift linkage and being careful to mark so it will be put back in right position and that it can be hard to get it back right in regards to Forward/Neutral/ and reverse, but i guess that may have been for a different motor than mine.

I am really starting to have serious doubts as to whether i need to be messing around with things on a motor when i am not that knowledgeable, including the adjustments. I have been looking at diagrams all over the internet of my motor and if the manuals have these diagrams without any instructions on what to breakdown first it may become more difficult than i think. I was able to see in these diagrams the dog gears and all the other stuff so that was nice to know. It almost looks like it would be easier to just look at the dog first but then again i may not understand the diagrams enough.

The boat is at my fathers house in Arkansas and I live in Texas and I was just hoping I could help him out and he wants me to come back and the mechanic has agreed to come over and go out in boat again, but at this point you are telling me he would not be able to make adjustments to gears by coming over. If he takes it then he is gonna charge for it because the adjustment of gears have nothing to do with anything he may have done improperly. There are other problems with the boat and I know he is just going to come over take the boat out and if it dies while driving he will just adjust the carbs and drive again and to me it will work for that day temporarily but it will go back to the problems. I myself only made an adjustment to the carbs once and that was when i first got boat back from him and I it would not start, called him and he told me which way to turn carbs, thats it, the rest of the turning and adjusting of carbs were done by him on water with my father. Most likely the carbs need to be looked at and worked on and I was under impression before got it back and drove it that all these things had been checked out but they had not. We have already invested $1400 in the boat and we still have another bill coming which leaves no money for any work right now. Furthermore some of the things he installed on boat are not working which makes me think that there was a different problem with equipment that would not call for buying new one. I may take this equipment off demand the old one back and refund. I really appreciate all the help thus far and if i change my mind and get the guts to try things out myself i will do. Now he is telling my dad it is the coils and telling me their is an air/feul problem and then trying to point the finger at the prior owners and saying they let the boat overheat when i know that the boat overheated on him. That is what he gets for not testing the boat out in the shop before taking it on water again and for all i know some things got messed up on motor when it overheated on him. Thank you Frank for the very informative advice on carb adjust and also the steps on shift adjustment.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

When the motor is pushing the boat forward it is pressing against the transom brackets and thru them to the transom. I'm having a problem visualizing the motor dropping further to create a "thud" at deceleration. Have you got loose batteries, fuel tanks, or tool boxes that are shifting position? How about soaked foam causing the list?

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Well it does not feel like the motor is pushing the boat forward in regards to motor dropping back down. It is a little hard to explain and I have never seen this before, I had other people watch and they saw what i was talking about. If i am driving the boat and then slow down and stop the motor drops down real fast and it sounds like the bottom part of the motor is hitting the boat. The only time the i was able to detect the boat making any kind of motion in regards to the what i call a loud knock, thud, etc. was that once the whole boat shook and it was enough to make me take the boat in. The knocks are loud enough to be noticeable alot of times. I originally thought something was loose in the boat too and removed anything that could cause that, the battery is in plastic case and not near transom and positioned where it would not be able to move. I am not sure what you mean by foam.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Hey Frank,
Well my dad had the mechanic put the stingray on so it was brand new. Honestly i do not know the whole reason why they put it on, i am not sure if they were having problems getting it on plane or not. I do know that to me it always seems on plane more so than any boat i have ever been in, almost like a log ride! seems to spray alot more water than i have ever seen. As for the tilt/trim thing I think you have hit the nail on the head. The motor bleeds down if raised up and this was pointed out to the mechanic before we had him take it, when we got it back it was still the same, he said he never noticed it had a problem. I thought was going to be fixed, I have talked to someone on this forum about sending it in to get valves and seals but I am not sure my father even wants to mess with it, he wants to take it out in the middle of the lake and leave it. I do like to fix things this stuff can be very time consuming and what seems to be a simple task on a boat sometimes can end up taking more time than expected. I also have limited tools because my father is not very good at fixing things and not really that inclined. I do have people that i can borrow somethings from. Another problem is that none of us have a car with a hitch, no trucks, we have trailer. The boat is on a lift in the water, father lives on lake. Look for my post with sawdust in the title, I give a breakdown of what was charged to someone that offered to help but have not heard back from them , I would not mind if someone would at least tell me what a reasonable charge is. I am aware that people have to make money but there is a limit to things and how much you should charge somebody, $110 hour is good. I have no doubt that my father would not have a problem with the bill if the boat would have come back running and we knew more about how he came up with 15 hours of work. I had some guys helping me some but ran them all off I am sure the mechanic is reallly glad I am not there anymore.

Re: When installing new impeller question?

Frank how do i check the valves, if easy i will look at whenever i go back, will put on list to check.