[verne1972]

alright, just in time for memorial day. I have spark on one cylinder. If your looking at the engine from the back its the rignt lower cylinder thats got great spark. Every where else, notta... I recently had the powerpac replaced and now this. Can anyone tell me some fairly easy troubleshooting technics that might help me track down the problem?

Serial # 0G144856 Model # 7150413DD
1995 Mariner Magnum 150 V6 EFI


Thanks in advance.

[CharlieB]

To drop spark on 5 cyl's at once, I doubt if it is the ignition boxes.

You will need to carefully test both the stator and triggers to determine the problem.

Complete testing procedures can be found in the (FREE) Ignition Troubleshooting Guide found thru the links at www.rapair.com

[sschefer]

Here's a swag. How about at bad ground at the coils. I agree, it would be odd that both switch boxes were bad unless you recently crossed the connections on your battery. Trigger is possible, stator probably isn't since you do have good spark on one cylinder and that means you are making voltage.

[verne1972]

thank you for the link to that troubleshooting guide. I was reading on the basic thinks to check, and when i went out to the boat to check spark by removing the plug wires one at a time to see if it pick up spark on the other cylinders. Low and behold there is no spark on the cylinder from yesterday and now i have spark on the top opposite cylinder. Any ideas?

[sschefer]

O.K. so the problem is moving around on you. My first check would be to look for loose connections. Obviously, from my prior post, the first thing I would look for is a loose, broken or corroded ground connection(s). I would start with each coil and test the black wires to see if they all show good continuity to ground. In most cases, they tie together at a common point(s) on the engine and if there is corrosion at that point, the act of moving the plug wires when checking for spark could be what caused it to move to a different cylinder.

Please note that applying pressure to the connector with a mulit-meter probe could cause the connection to appear good so you really should take them apart, clean them with a small, hand held wire brush and then reassemble them applying a di-electric grease to prevent future corrosion.

While your testing, do the basic stator and trigger resitance tests. They won't tell you everything about the condition of either component but if they fail these simple tests, you can consider them to be bad.

[verne1972]

thanks im working on it currently, ill let you know what i find. btw, are there any relays that may be bad?

[sschefer]

Not usually in the part of the ignition circut that you are working on. Relays are normally used in switched, high load circuits like the ignition switch to starter and trim and tilt.

[verne1972]

alright its not a ground, i dont think. i replaced the battery terminal, checked and cleaned all the grounds comming from the coils. i checked for any loose or broken wires. nothing. so now what? im new to this motor, and im not a pro. i do have a meter, unfortuantly in the troubleshooting guide, i dont think it covers my engine, it says it for a 96 and newer, mine is a 95. just my luck.

[sschefer]

Originally Posted by verne1972

alright its not a ground, i dont think. i replaced the battery terminal, checked and cleaned all the grounds comming from the coils. i checked for any loose or broken wires. nothing. so now what? im new to this motor, and im not a pro. i do have a meter, unfortuantly in the troubleshooting guide, i dont think it covers my engine, it says it for a 96 and newer, mine is a 95. just my luck.

You'll need to get the part number on the stator, the switch boxes and the trigger. They are usually on the leadwire protective covers for the stator and trigger. The switchboxe numbers can be a little harder to find. Often you have to identify them by the terminal confugurations.

If you have a Seloc manual it will list the part number, the resistance values and the wire colors to use in the checks.
If you can forward me the part numbers I can look them up for you, I have the manual.

[sschefer]

The next place to check will be the switch boxes. Disconnect the white/black wire between the boxes and check for spark. If you have spark on more cylinders it's the bias circuit. You need to replace both switch boxes.

[verne1972]

thanks. my switch boxs are 332-7778-A1, the oem number should be a 332-7778-A12 could that represent a problem? voltage regulators are 194-5279 from CDI Manufacturing, the oem number for that should be 883072T. The stator number i could not find, the oem number is 9610A19. I could not find the triger number either, the oem is 96455A9. Thanks for all the help. im one of those champange taste on a beer budget kind of guys, and this site saves me tons.

[verne1972]

i removed the jumper wire, nothing. i recently had the switch boxes replaced. the replacements were not new. the question i have is; if the switch boxes are bad again. whats causing that?

[sschefer]

Originally Posted by verne1972

i removed the jumper wire, nothing. i recently had the switch boxes replaced. the replacements were not new. the question i have is; if the switch boxes are bad again. whats causing that?

Believe it or not the most common cause is a loose connection such as a bad coil ground. The switchboxes are designed to blow if your accidently swap your battery terminials (positive on neg and neg on positive.). The info I'm giving you is from the seloc manual.

Here's the CDI guide for the switchboxes -

Your part numbers seem to cross O.K. The next stop will be the stator and trigger.

The trigger should read 750-1400 ohms. Most meters read in K ohms so use the lowest scale.

You should have two sleeves comming off the trigger. One should be yellow and one should be black. In the yellow sleeve you should have a Brown, Purple and White wire and in the black you should have the same colors. Test the following for resistance readings for 750-1400 ohms.

Brown (yellow sleeve) to Purple (black sleeve)
Purple (yellow sleeve) to White (black sleeve)
White (yellow sleeve) to Brown (black sleeve)

Low readings indicate a trigger that is breaking down and has some shorted windings and higher readings indicate a trigger that is breaking down and has some open windings.

Here are the most common tests as recommended by CDI. This is nearly word for word out of the Seloc manual but is actually from the CDI website.

CDI P/N: 114-7778
This switch Box replaces these P/N's: 332-5524, 332-7778A1, 332-7778A3, 332-7778A5, 332-7778A6, 332-7778A9 and 332-7778A12.
Warning! This product is designed for installation by a professional marine mechanic. CDI cannot be held liable for injury or damage
resulting from improper installation, abuse, neglect or misuse of this product.
Disconnect the kill wire(s): Connect a DC volt meter between the kill wires and engine ground. Turn the ignition switch
on and off several times. If, at any time, you see DC voltage on the kill wires, there is a problem with the harness or
ignition switch. Battery voltage on the kill circuit will destroy most ADI type switch boxes.
INSTALLATION
1. Disconnect the positive battery cable.
2. Check and clean all battery terminals and engine grounds.
3. Unbolt and remove the old switch box, saving the original bolts and nuts.
4. Install the new switch box using the original bolts and nuts.
5. Connect the black ground wire to engine ground.
6. Connect the ignition coil ground wire to the extra stud in the new switch box if the engine originally had the coil ground wires connected to the
side of the switch box.
7. Reconnect battery cable.
TROUBLESHOOTING
Unit will not fire:
1. Disconnect kill wire AT THE PACK.
2. Check for broken or bare wires on the unit, stator and trigger.
3. Check the DVA voltage of the stator, (Read from each red and blue wire to engine ground), with everything connected. The
readings should be approximately 180 volts or more on the blue wires, and 30 volts or more on the red wires.
4. Disconnect the rectifier. If the engine fires, replace the rectifier.
Engine will not kill:
Check kill circuit in the pack by using a jumper wire connected to the black/yellow terminal or wire coming out of the pack and shorting it
to ground. If this kills the engine, the kill circuit in the harness or on the boat is bad, possibly the ignition switch.
High speed miss:
1. Disconnect the rectifier and retest. If miss is gone, the rectifier is usually at fault.
2. Check DVA voltage on the red wires to engine ground on 3 & 6 cylinder) of the stator at high speed. NOTICE: Use caution when
doing this and do not exceed the rated voltage range of your meter. The readings should show a smooth climb in voltage. If there
is a sudden or fast drop in voltage right before the miss becomes apparent, the stator is usually at fault. If there is no indication of
the problem, it could be mechanical problem.
Coils fire with spark plugs out but not in:
1. Check for dragging starter or low battery causing slow cranking speed. DVA test stator and trigger.
2. Disconnect rectifier, regulator and retest. If the problem goes away, replace the rectifier and/or regulator.
No fire on one bank (odd or even cylinders on Inline 6 cylinder engines):
Check DVA voltage of the stator, checking from each red and blue wire to engine ground. The readings should be approximately 180
volts or more on the blue wires and 30 or more on the red wires. If a DVA meter is not available, swap both sets of the stator wires
between the packs. If the problem moves, replace the stator. If the problem stays on the same bank, swap physical location and all
connections of the two packs. If the problem stays with one pack, replace the pack. NOTE: If the pack is bad, it is recommended that
BOTH packs be replaced if the packs are not manufactured by CDI or RAPAIR. If the packs lose ground, internally or externally, the
packs manufactured by other sources usually have severe damage to the bias circuit and have to be replaced as a set. The packs
manufactured by CDI and RAPAIR will withstand loss of ground connection, normally with no damage to the bias circuitry. In most
cases you will just lose fire.
Intermittent firing on one or more cylinders:
Disconnect the white/black wire between the packs on a 6 cylinder and retest. If all cylinders now fire, replace both packs as there is a
problem in the bias circuitry. On all others, check for low voltage from the stator and trigger. Disconnect the rectifier and retest. If the
problem disappears, replace the rectifier.
All cylinders fire but the engine will not crank and run:
On 3 and 6 cylinder engines, disconnect white/black wire and check the bias circuit (white/black terminals) resistance to engine
ground. Readings should be approximately 15,000W for standard packs and 9600 for racing units. If the readings are correct on the
packs, index the flywheel and check timing on all individual cylinders. If the timing varies, replace BOTH packs.
Destroyed one or two cylinders (6 cylinder):
Using a DC Voltmeter check the voltage on the white/black (Bias) terminal. With everything connected, run the engine at various
Rpm’s and watch the voltage reading. It should remain steady for a set RPM. Fluctuation in voltage indicates a problem in the bias
circuit. If there is a problem, disconnect everything on the white/black terminal except the jumper from pack to pack. Retest, if the
problem persists, replace BOTH switch boxes. If the problem went away, reconnect the items taken off of the white/black terminal one
at a time, retest after every reconnection until you locate the source of the problem.
Thank you for using CDI Electronics. 1/15/2008
CDI Electronics · 111 Commerce Circle · Madison, AL 35758 · Fax 256-772-5701 · www.cdielectronics.com

[verne1972]

i removed the yel/black wires and still no spark. CDI said to disconnect the rectifier. does my engine have one, and if so, where? i am getting ready to go check ohms and voltage.

[sschefer]

I just replied to your PM and this is the text in case some one else has the same problem.

Your battery voltage rectifier(s) is used to get tach pulses and convert AC to DC to charge the battery and give 12v to your accessories when running. This one is not normally part of the ignition systems but some stators do require it to close the loop. It would only cause a problem in that scenario. Since we don't know which of the three possible stators you have we don't know if it needs it or not.


There will (should not) not be any voltage present ever at the stator with the key on or off. The voltage comes from the stator when the engine is turning over. Essentially, the key is just used to start the engine and provide a switch for your accessories. In the off position it is grounded and this grounds the switchbox and kills the engine.

Power to the switch box does go through rectifiers but they are in the switchbox itself.

Your trigger tests are within specs for a stock trigger and I think you can call it good. The problem is that you won't know for sure unless you do a running voltage test.

The next thing that needs checking in the process of elimination is the stator. The resistance checks are just preliminary, the voltage tests are more reliable and a final visual inspection usually tells whole story.

The type of ignition system that you have is actually two three cylinder systems hence the yellow and black sleeves with identical wire colors on the trigger(s). It would be very odd to be having spark on only one cylinder and then have it move around like that. Do you see what I mean.

When you disconnected the white/black wire between the two switch boxes did you have any spark on any cylinder at all?

At this point, why don't you go to http://www.crowleymarineservice.com and take a look at the different parts diagrams for your engine. This will get you more familiar with how things are setup. You can get a basic idea of how the wiring should be but you really need a correct wiring diagram in order to trouble shoot the problem correctly.

Without the stator tests it's hard to be sure. I'm still leaning to side of the bad connection theory. The problem there is that this problem is known to blow switchboxes so you may actually have two problems and if you don't find and fix them both it might get expensive.

[verne1972]

my results were on the red and red/white 111.0 oms
my result on both the blu and bl/wht were 3.95 K oms

heres the stator resistance,

i have the kill wires disconnected, should i retry to take the jumper wire off that connects the 2 boxes and retry for spark? also, should i remove the green wires from the coils one at a time and check for fire on the other cylinders? now tht i have tested the resistance of the trigger and the stator, i think that they both may be alright. im down to the switch boxes. i think..

[sschefer]

Originally Posted by verne1972

my results were on the red and red/white 111.0 oms
my result on both the blu and bl/wht were 3.95 K oms

heres the stator resistance,

i have the kill wires disconnected, should i retry to take the jumper wire off that connects the 2 boxes and retry for spark? also, should i remove the green wires from the coils one at a time and check for fire on the other cylinders? now tht i have tested the resistance of the trigger and the stator, i think that they both may be alright. im down to the switch boxes. i think..

Put everything back the way it was originally. Put the engine on muffs make sure the safety lanyard is in place and holding the safety switch open then try to start it. If it doesn't start at all, do your spark tests again and let me know what you find.

[sschefer]

I'm still heavy on the loose wire theory. There are two things that will constantly blow switchboxes. 1. A bad coil. 2. A spikey stator. You'll need an O scope to truly see the spike. A coil can test good but still be feeding back to the switchbox and blowing it.

Which brings me all the way back to the loose wire theory. If it was a bad coil you could still get spark but why the heck is it moving around unless it's the scr in the switch box and it's advancing the timing.

Here's a link to a full trouble shooting guide:
http://outboardparts.com/troubleshooting/printguide.htm

Does anyone know if #1 follows #5 in the firing order?

[verne1972]

alright, i put everything back together. still no spark on any cylinder. i have CDI voltage regulators that had the plastic covered connectors taped over. i decided to remove the tape for inspection and i found two plastic covers that had been vrey hot. one yellow wire and one red. the yellow wire was considerably hotter than the red. neither melted the insulation off the wire. also let me add, there is a grey wire comming from both regulators, only one was connected to another grey wire, the other was just hanging there, connected to nothing. could this have anything to do with the no spark issue or this something else all together.

[verne1972]

ALSO, i tried checking the kill wires for voltage when i repetedly turned the ignition off and on. It was jumping all over the place with no constants. ????

[CharlieB]

You have the TWO rectifier charging system, 32 amps, each rectifier has a grey tach trigger, ONLY oone is needed for the tach, the other is not necessary.

The ignition system is its own alternator driven electrically and should have NO Connection except the stator also has seperate charging coils mounted on the same stator steel frame, the charging coils connect to the rectifiers and have NO INPUT to the ignition system.

The ignition system may loosely be called a magneto ignition, self-exciting and 'grounds-to-kill' by way of the black wire w/yellow trace. The ignition switch is actually TWO seperate switchs in the same housing, in the OFF position it grounds black w/yellow to kill the engine AND the second set of switch contacts disconnects all accessories from battery power.

At NO TIME should you see battery voltage, of any amount, on the black w/yellow with the ignition switch EITHER ON or OFF when the engine is NOT running or cranking. When the engine is cranking or running then the black w/yellow will be energized and will bite the Holy Spit out of you!

[verne1972]

alright so i have a definite problem with the ignition system if the black w/yell
has any voltage. any sugestions as to what might be causing it (what to replace). also it said that any voltage could and probably would short the swich boxes. so i think were getting closer to the problem, swich boxes. which by the way i just missed two on ebay last night for 75.00.......

[CharlieB]

Before you start spending money on NON-returnable electrical parts.

Did we forget to mention that the ignition system has a minimum cranking speed of 300 RPM for the stator to generate sufficient voltage to operate the ignition modules and fire the coils?

Check (or re-check) ALL battery cable connections, BOTH ENDS as well as the starter cable . Connections must be clean, bright, and tight.

If necessary, disassemble the starter, lightly sand the commutator clean, clean and re-oil the bushings.

[verne1972]

hello,
well i have new info on my 115. I have gone thru every wire on the engine checking for a bad connection. nothing. so i started reading this online manual someone forwarded to me and i though that maybe i was not get enough rpms out of the starter. first i removed all the sparkplugs and low and behold i got spark again ( only in one cylinder, but i was happy, its a start) so then i removed the starter and took it apart and cleaned all of the contacts and fliped the brushes. put it back in replced the plugs it turned over much better this time but it was still questionable rps. i have two batteries and ive had them on chargers the entire time. they both read 12.4 volts. i tried to crank it with both batteries at first but it was not great rpms. i turned my switch to the front battery and the the rpms did not change, i turned the switch to the back (which by the way has the ground wire going to the engine and it would not even engage the bindix on the starter. i swaped the batteries and the same thing happened. somewhere i am loosing the power of the second battery and im wondering if because its the one that has its ground side going directly to the engine if this has been my problem all allong? what do think, i have replaced the terminal on the ground side of the back batttery, i cut about 4 inches off the ground wire in this process to assure a good connection, but even that far back the wire was not bright copper. could you maybe give me some pointers? thanks, Verne

[sschefer]

The RPM's of the starter do make a difference but I can't see it causing you to loose spark in all but one cylinder. Is the spark on that cylinder good or is it weak?