How do I improve ride quality - short of buying a new boat!!

packman35 · #1 May 8th, 2009, 10:40 AM

The lake we use has a lot of traffic during the summer. It is rare to find calm water. It seems like there is always a wake coming at you from one direction or another.

As long as I cross the wakes at 45-90 degrees, it isn't too bad. But if I get caught broadside by one (which seems to happen a lot due to the shear number of them), the boat really rolls and almost feels like it is going to go over.

Needless to say, the feeling of almost rolling over is not pleasing the wife. She has visions of us rolling and spilling kids all over the lake.

So how can I improve the ride somewhat? I know speed and weight distribution are important but - how. Slower or faster? Weight forward or aft? Trim in or out? Anything else I can do?

Ideally I would like a bigger 20-23' boat which presumably would help but that just isn't in the budget right now.

Also, how would a deckboat do in this situation? We really like the layout of them but I wouldn't want to buy something that rides worse that what I have now!!!

Thanks!

CaptNCamille · #2 May 8th, 2009, 10:54 AM

I dont know what else you can do other than take the waves on an angle.

If you do go for a new boat,look for something with a deep " v " hull. The more boat under the water, the more stable it will be.

QC · #3 May 8th, 2009, 11:11 AM

Hull design is a complicated issue . . . Yes, a V-hull with a high deadrise (angle of V at stern) of 20 degrees or more will definitely make crossing wakes smoother. However . . . more deadrise also makes them less stable from side to side.

There are an infinite number of throttle, angle, trim, wake, speed combinations. Some are obvious, some are not. I often take bigger wakes almost parallel as I can roll over them without slamming, but it sounds like this is scaring your wife. There are times when going faster and trimming up is good, and there are times when trimming down and going slow is good. Also, there are times when it is really sloppy that you need to trim up some, and go slow and dig a big hole just to maintain a somewhat dry ride.

Describe this side to side issue that seems to scare your wife. Are you on plane? IS it just the rolling motion that is scaring her?

The addition of some sort of trim tabs can help. With your experience level I think I would try Smart Tabs which you can search for here and get a ton of info. Definitely makes a boat more stable and allows very low speed planing operation that can be amazingly smooth. Does not solve all of the conditions for sure, but can make the whole rig just feel more solid.

The rest frankly, is experience and time. Go out by yourself and just try every combination under the sun. You'll find some sweet spots for certain conditions that should make for a better day for all.

dingbat · #4 May 8th, 2009, 11:43 AM

You will not get good ride quality from boat that “floats” on the water like a piece of plywood.

There is absolutely no replacement for displacement when it comes to ride quality. No way getting around it.

CATransplant · #5 May 8th, 2009, 11:55 AM

That's a tough nut to crack. The obvious solution is to find a quieter lake, but that's not always easy to do.

Since QC asked the right questions, I'll wait to hear your answer about the conditions where this occurs.

packman35 · #6 May 8th, 2009, 01:03 PM

Thanks guys for the replies!!

Experience is definitely the key here I think. Until I bought this boat in January, I had never driven a boat with an engine before!!

The "roll" is happening mostly when I am on plane. It honestly feels less like just rolling over the wake and more like the wake is trying to flip us. It really shows up if we get hit from port. I am about 270 and my wife is half that so I know that makes a big difference. It doesn't seem quite as bad if I slow down. It just feels really unstable at speed (20mph+).

I know the smart tabs help in lower speed planing but will they also help make the side to side stability better? I assume they would act like horizontal stabilizers.

I guess QC said it best - we (she) would like the rig to just feel more solid. I know - a lot to ask from an 18ft boat!!

MikDee · #7 May 8th, 2009, 01:05 PM

Nauticus Trim tabs would help keep you more stabilized, it should feel like a bigger boat, they will also do other good things

I would suggest a hydrofoil, it works to a degree, but in this case, I think trim tabs are better.

Yeah, that's it, You got it! Smart Tabs

RotaryRacer · #8 May 8th, 2009, 01:41 PM

I have quite a bit of time behind the helm of a 1990 FourWinns 170 Freedom with a 2.3L OMC I/O. In fact probably 500 hours or more. It isn't the exact same hull as you have but pretty close. The most significant difference is the transom design for the O/B vs. I/O.

With waves/wakes coming from the side I found that more speed and a bit of trim up was usually the best option. Running at 20 mph you aren't up on top of the water like you would be at say 30 mph. If you can get up on top of the wave you may actually find that the boat stays much more level side to side. In really depends on the circumstances though. That boat should actually ride quite smooth for it's size. FourWinns had a good hull design in that boat. The main problem is the lack of freeboard. It is a low slung boat that can take waves over the bow pretty easily if you aren't careful.

I think a lot of how comfortable you are on a boat comes with experience. Being in a boat is completely different than riding in a car. There is far more motion side to side and up and down than in a car.

As far as trim tabs, you may find it difficult to mount any type of tab on the transom of your boat. I agree that they would help in your situation. However, the way the swim platform and motor well are molded into the hull it doesn't leave a lot of real estate for mounting trim tabs.

RotaryRacer · #9 May 8th, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packman35

The "roll" is happening mostly when I am on plane. It honestly feels less like just rolling over the wake and more like the wake is trying to flip us.

I just re-read this and I think it makes a bit more sense to me now. Is the boat getting stuck in the trough (low point) of the wave and having a hard time climbing back up the next one? Is it kinda like the boat is surfing on the wave? Does the front of the boat seem to dig in and try to follow trough of the wave?

That can be scary. It is a strange feeling.

If that is the case I would say a little more speed and trim may be the exact thing you need. However, you have to approach anything like this with caution.

gandude · #10 May 8th, 2009, 03:05 PM

I am just learning the nuances of piloting a vessel; take this with a grain of salt...

I am with your wife. I hate crossing a parallel wake, it’s very unsettling, esp. a big wake. My wife loves it though. I have found that if you wait for the wake to come close to the boat and then turn the wheel slightly into the wake, it’s not as bad. If you let the wake flow into you while going straight, it’s unsettling. The less time you spend on the leading wave the better. By turning the wheel a little bit, you are spending less time on the wave. To leave the wake, do the opposite, at the last second, turn out of it slightly till you clear it.

If you ride motorcycles, it's like the railroad track thing...

packman35 · #11 May 8th, 2009, 03:26 PM

RotaryRacer - I think what you are describing is exactly what I am experiencing.
It actually does feel like I am sometimes "sliding" back down into the trough.

Smart Tabs it may be.

stevens · #12 May 8th, 2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packman35

We would like the rig to just feel more solid. I know - a lot to ask from an 18ft boat!!

That's really what your problem is. No remedy, not even Smart Tabs, will make a small boat bigger.

In my experience, there is a huge difference between 18-21-25 feet boat lengths, with significant gains in stability/solidity/comfort for each step up.

So: use your current boat for practice. Don't go out when/where waves are too high for comfort. Save up for a bigger boat.

MikDee · #13 May 8th, 2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotaryRacer

I just re-read this and I think it makes a bit more sense to me now. Is the boat getting stuck in the trough (low point) of the wave and having a hard time climbing back up the next one? Is it kinda like the boat is surfing on the wave? Does the front of the boat seem to dig in and try to follow trough of the wave?

That can be scary. It is a strange feeling.

If that is the case I would say a little more speed and trim may be the exact thing you need. However, you have to approach anything like this with caution.

RR, I don't mean to offend, but You really can't compare your boat to his, every 4Winns has the deepest Vee of most any other Vee bottom boat made, from what I found by studying them to buy over the years. Just take a look around, especially at boats on rack storage. It makes for a theoretically smoother ride over waves, but more of a tipsy design side, to side, especially in a small boat. The only other boat I've seen that comes close to that deep vee, is a Wellcraft Nova.

Oops! Sorry! I just noticed he has a 4 Winns as well

I thought it was a Bayliner he had.

Well all this still applies, even more so now, but I believe trim tabs will help, if you can't mount them, get a hydrofoil, my boat came with one, and it seems to help keep it flat in the turns as well, I actually found this out after I removed it

RotaryRacer · #14 May 8th, 2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikDee

RR, I don't mean to offend, but You really can't compare your boat to his

No offense even before your edit...Interestly enough I didn't compare my current boat to his. My current boat is actually very different than his. I was comparing his boat to the boat my family had in my formative years.

1990 FourWinns 170 Freedom I/O vs. 1993 FourWinns 180 Freedom O/B.

These actually had essentially the same hull except for the fact one is I/O and the other is O/B. The 1990-170 actually had a LOA of 18'6" as did the 1993-180. They changed the model number system in there.

Regardless, I think packman has a better understaning of how to make his situation better.

I love this forum. It gives me a chance to spew forth all this FourWinns trivia that happened to get stuck in my head some where along the way.

MikDee · #15 May 8th, 2009, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotaryRacer

No offense even before your edit...Interestly enough I didn't compare my current boat to his. My current boat is actually very different than his. I was comparing his boat to the boat my family had in my formative years.

1990 FourWinns 170 Freedom I/O vs. 1993 FourWinns 180 Freedom O/B.

These actually had essentially the same hull except for the fact one is I/O and the other is O/B. The 1990-170 actually had a LOA of 18'6" as did the 1993-180. They changed the model number system in there.

Regardless, I think packman has a better understaning of how to make his situation better.

I love this forum. It gives me a chance to spew forth all this FourWinns trivia that happened to get stuck in my head some where along the way.

By the way, Four Winns are one of the Best boats made from what I've seen, I've liked them all, the Liberator the best of course

there used to be a dealer near my house on Long Island.

superpop · #16 May 8th, 2009, 07:07 PM

Get a bigger, wider boat. That's what I did and the difference is night and day.

Tail_Gunner · #17 May 8th, 2009, 07:22 PM

If you have a 20 degree v hull you might find the speed of the boat has a very direct impact on ride quality. I have a 186..18' 6" 8' beam and about 4' of freeboard.. In 1-2 foot chop at 35 shes pretty rough...it still plowing at that speed..Now at 42-45 the boat rides on top of the swells and it smoothes right out....But note this..you need to pay attention to just how close the spacing is between the swell's 6-8' no problem the boat flys between them and all is good... go beyond 10 to 12 feet the boat is going to drop a bit and boom it going to bounce back up again..

Experiment a bit and be ready to throttle up or down accordingly..It can be a bit nerve wracking i guess is the word to fire it up in a rough chop to get on top of the waves...But be safe above all thing's.

Bubba1235 · #18 May 8th, 2009, 08:39 PM

I am going to approach this from a differnt direction because my wife deeply fears and hates rough rides. If yours is like mine, you can see in her face she is NOT enjoying boating one bit at moments like that. My wife has one expression that means, "I'm ready to go to shore" and I hate seeing it...

So, let me ask this. Say you spend the money for trim tabs, maybe a hydrofoil, etc. and can decrease the effect 20% or so. Is that going to make your wife happy? Will she be comfortable and enjoy the time on the boat? If not, don't waste the time and money. As the old saying has it, "If momma ain't happy, no one's happy".

If you don't believe its going to be good enough I see three choices, find a better lake, get a bigger boat, or be ready to go boating alone until you eventually sell it. I would vote for a better lake if a bigger boat isn't happening.

From how you describe your current lake, I can't imagine swimming, sking, tubing, etc. would be much fun either. Unless we are talking very, very long distances finding new boating areas is half the fun of a smaller and easily trailerable boat. Get up early in the morning, drive an hour or two and spend a day exploring an entirely different side of boating. Its one of my wife's and I favorite boating activities. The same old scenery, no matter how nice, gets boring eventually. It's why they made trailers.

mickjetblue · #19 May 8th, 2009, 09:49 PM

Your boat is not a deep v hull, as much as it is a shallow v hull.
Not an ideal boat for taking waves, and I went through a somewhat
similar situation. Ended up buying a used bigger boat.

You have a good boat, although not suited for the water you are using.

I agree with the others about speed being the only way to get the
boat to ride higher, and I think that 28+ would do it. Although that
will use more fuel at a constant run, and may not be ideal for what you
want to cruise around at.

Curious about what kind of water you are in, and what size boats are
making the waves.

Good luck!

ovrrdrive · #20 May 8th, 2009, 10:14 PM

Sorry to go against the grain around here, but in a lightweight boat like that with basically a flat bottom I'd recommend a real set of adjustable trim tabs for your problem over the smart tabs. Part of your problem is that you weigh twice what your wife weighs and adding a set of auto tabs can actually aggravate that condition and give you some unpredictable results. Sure they're cheap and easy to install, but you get what you pay for...

If you install a set of Bennetts or Lenco's you can not only adjust them so they give you the best ride dependent on the conditions, they also allow you to adjust them independently of each other. In other words, you can change the side to side attitude of the boat and correct the listing you're experiencing due to your weight. You can not only adjust the trim of the boat independent from the trim of the motor and make the hull plane more efficiently, you can also greatly improve the ride quality of the boat too.

Do your research before you decide what to buy. Once you drill holes in the boat you're most likely going to want to stay with what ever solution you end up going with, so make it a good one.

The Smart Tabs are a great product, no doubt about it. However, this is the only forum I've seen that the bulk of the people recommend them for every boat and situation. Most are just too concerned about Lenco and Bennett...

I have a set of Bennetts on my bayboat and I'm still amazed on how well they transformed the ride.

RotaryRacer · #21 May 8th, 2009, 11:37 PM

The 1993 180 Freedom has an 18 degree deadrise at the transom. Not all that deep, but not flat either.

MikDee · #22 May 9th, 2009, 03:20 AM

Here's what I've learned, so apparently this boat has a better vee design then I thought, compared to the older models, and should be decent riding. The only thing I can say, is the boats probably roo small for you:

Four Winns Boats Fact Sheet C.A.I.G. Fact Sheets Visit Four Winns website The Winn family purchased the Saf-T-Mate Boat Company in Cadillac, Michigan, in 1975. In 1978, fire all but destroyed the company’s manufacturing facility, but production was quickly reestablished and the company went through a period of great expansion in the 1980s. In 1993, Four Winns developed the patented the Stable-Vee hull design – resulting in greater lateral stability and improved handling – a change that revolutionized the boating industry. In 2003, Four Winns announced another major boat design breakthrough: Cross-Stream Architecture. Since 2001, Four Winns has been part of the Genmar family of boat companies. Genmar is the world’s largest builder of recreational boats, with 13 manufacturing facilities worldwide.

coastalcruiser · #23 May 9th, 2009, 04:44 AM

Does the lake look like this?

AZSenza · #24 May 9th, 2009, 05:11 AM

LOL, I can relate for a number of reasons! My wifes favorite lake, Canyon, obviously has some pretty narrow channels in it and some TOO BIG FOR A LAKE boats, 33 footers and up. The wake they leave going down a 75 yard wide channel is enough to make your teeth crack. We used to have an 84 4Winns 17 footer, Bennet trim tabs and a 350 Chevy I/O, it was FAST and handled like a sports car with the tabs on it. One of the main reasons we got the bigger boat in my signature was the wave factor. I was confident of my skills and taking the waves but the rocking made my wife very nervous! I do have to say the Bennets worked fantastic, they made the boat feel like a 20 footer. Our current 22 foot boat with a 23* deadrise still suffers from the same huge waves from the same huge boats but it takes them like a bigger boat would but sometimes we still have to stop, let the waves do there thing, then get back to business. We are fortunate to have several lakes nearby, a HUGE one is an hour, another big one is 45 minutes and the two we go to are about 20 minutes. Yeah, we live in the desert! Whodda thought!

RotaryRacer · #25 May 9th, 2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikDee

In 1993, Four Winns developed the patented the Stable-Vee hull design – resulting in greater lateral stability and improved handling – a change that revolutionized the boating industry.

The Stable-Vee hull design wan't used on the 180 Freedom in 1993. The Freedom has a pretty traditional V-Hull. In 1994 the Stable-Vee design was used on all the smaller models.