Something to think hard about.

sschefer

Rear Admiral
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Nov 13, 2008
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Here's one to think really hard about. At first you might think it's absurd, I did. After I thought about it I realized that letting the guy get in the boat in the first place was the contributing factor in him loosing his life:

From the Santa Rosa Press Democrat 04/06/2009

A state appeals court has ruled that a felony manslaughter charge should be reinstated against a Petaluma man who was backing up a boat on Lake Sonoma when a drunken friend jumped off the stern to his death two years ago.

Will Dawson, 27, could face up to four years in prison if convicted on the manslaughter charge, one of two felonies resulting from the May 6, 2007 death of his longtime friend, Mark Spier.


In its decision Thursday, the California First District Appellate Court overturned prior rulings by two Sonoma County judges who determined that Spier, 51, died because of his own actions despite whatever negligent acts Dawson might or might not have committed.

The appellate court disagreed, highlighting testimony that detailed Spier?s increasing drunkenness, belligerent defiance in the face of safety instructions and refusal to give up his bid to water ski that day.
Dawson, the three-judge panel said, was the ?captain of the ship? and responsible ?to those on board, even if - indeed, particularly if ? they were intoxicated.?

Though witnesses said Dawson, who also had been drinking, used a designated driver for most of the day and reversed the boat smoothly and slowly, the court said it was nonetheless ?eminently foreseeable that Spier would again enter the water.

?And what more likely place to enter than the ski step, which was almost directly above the propeller,? the ruling said.
The ruling, which has been sought by the Sonoma County District Attorney?s will now be returned to Superior Court in Santa Rosa.
 

Edko

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Re: Something to think hard about.

Boat + Booze = Bad
 

lowkee

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Re: Something to think hard about.

Yet another ruling of people not being held responsible for their own actions. That guy was not forced to get plastered, he did so willingly, and anything that happened resulting from his getting plastered is his own damn fault.

I feel for the operator. It's no wonder we have apologists running our country, it's the nature of politics.. never take responsibility.
 
Last edited:

a70eliminator

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Sep 9, 2007
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Re: Something to think hard about.

I totally agree with you.
Say I was hit from behind while stoped at red light, my passenger died from head injury, I get charged with manslaughter even though it was the other guys fault for hitting me, but it was my fault my passenger wasn't wearing his seatbelt = GUILTY!
A law is a law and rules are rules period, but we are all human and sometimes it's a matter of morality.
 

ziggy

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Re: Something to think hard about.

i hate legal stuff...

on this though. i guess i'd concur. the way i get it is, that the captain of any vessel is responsible, period...
 

sportsmanphil

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Re: Something to think hard about.

This is not a story about a death, or boating safety. Its a story about a district attorney bloating his resume.

If a judge tossed it then a DA shouldnt be allowed to go 'over his head' and keep pushing it into other courts until he gets what he wants.
 

sschefer

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Re: Something to think hard about.

Read it again. I think most of us missed the point like I did the first time. The owner aka captain new the guy was drunk when he took him out in the boat in the first place. That was the fatal mistake, he should have stuck to his guns and just said no.

On the other hand, I too agree, this was Sonoma County California, the land where a Red Necks let their kids turn into hippies and those hippies turned into lawyers. Thank god my Dad whipped my butt and raised me the way he did.
 

ebry710

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Re: Something to think hard about.

The appellate court disagreed, highlighting testimony that detailed Spier?s increasing drunkenness, belligerent defiance in the face of safety instructions and refusal to give up his bid to water ski that day.
Dawson, the three-judge panel said, was the ?captain of the ship? and responsible ?to those on board, even if - indeed, particularly if ? they were intoxicated.?

Though witnesses said Dawson, who also had been drinking, used a designated driver for most of the day and reversed the boat smoothly and slowly, the court said it was nonetheless ?eminently foreseeable that Spier would again enter the water.

?And what more likely place to enter than the ski step, which was almost directly above the propeller,? the ruling said.
The ruling, which has been sought by the Sonoma County District Attorney?s will now be returned to Superior Court in Santa Rosa.

Although I don't understand the ruling and it is sad that someone died.....but in Santa Rosa, where it live, I am legally the "captain of the ship". That is the answer I was looking for in a forum I asked a couple of months ago.
 

sportsmanphil

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Re: Something to think hard about.

The reason I said that about the DA is that there have been a flood of DA's pushing cases for publicity more than anything and it backfiring on them. This mostly started with a local issue, (Duke Lacrosse case) Im sure everyone here has heard of that. The DA in that case is now facing multiple charges.

Now for my personal opinions: Id say 85% of all boating fatalities are alcohol related. Nothing new to me or anyone else here. The way I look at things, is to relate it to another device or action. Lets say you have agreed to drive a drunk friend home in your car, and he decides to jump out the door while you drive down the highway. Situation isnt too far removed from this boating fatality. Sould you as the DD be charged with manslaughter?

Or lets say the guy that died behind the boat wasnt drunk at all. Well, what changes? The captain was still backing up, and they second guy still died. Would the captain be charged in that case?

What gets me on this case is that it was already tossed out by a board of 3 judges. Thats where it should have ended.
 

lowkee

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Re: Something to think hard about.

Say I was hit from behind while stopped at red light, my passenger died from head injury, I get charged with manslaughter even though it was the other guys fault for hitting me, but it was my fault my passenger wasn't wearing his seatbelt = GUILTY!

I think a more linear analogy would be if your passenger jumped out of the car while you were driving down the highway, do you think you should be charged with manslaughter? Captain of the ship, right? Apparently you should be required to leave your friend on the side of the highway rather than give him a ride, like a 'good' captain.

Better yet, when you were a kid (you know, before seat belt laws and everyone being offended by everything) and you rode in the back of your dad's truck and you fell out and died, even though your dad was driving safely. Should your dad go to jail? Captain of the ship, right?

How about if someone jumps from a ferris wheel while you are the operator. Should you be imprisoned for their death?

How about the Ellis Island Ferry.. if someone was drunk and jumped into the freezing water and died. Should the ferry boat captain go to jail? Captain of the ship, right? Should he be required to hold all of the passengers in the boat and pilot the vessel?

Should all drunk people be refused rides? According to this ruling, yes. They should have to walk, no matter where they are. And what if you refuse a ride to a drunk perosn and they freeze to death and stumble into traffic? Should you be charged then as well? Does this ruling only count for drunk people? What about sleepy people? People on pain meds?

If a line must be drawn for when a law applies, the law should never exist.

A law is a law and rules are rules period, but we are all human and sometimes it's a matter of morality.

That doesn't make any sense. That kind of reminds me of the Animal Farm line.. "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
 

Titanium48

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Re: Something to think hard about.

Yet another ruling of people not being held responsible for their own actions. That guy was not forced to get plastered, he did so willingly, and anything that happened resulting from his getting plastered is his own damn fault.

I agree 100%. It should have ended when the lower courts used some common sense and threw the case out. Yes, in hindsight the boat operator should have insisted his buddy was too hammered to be on the water, but a person's responsibility for their own safety should not be diminished by intoxication unless the intoxicated person is actively encouraged to engage in dangerous activities he / she would ordinarily avoid. The fact that the intoxicated individual in this case displayed "belligerent defiance in the face of safety instructions and refusal to give up his bid to water ski that day" strongly suggests that he was instead encouraged NOT to engage in the potentially dangerous activity. To me, that indicates that the captain did indeed uphold his responsibilities to those on board.
 

Edko

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Re: Something to think hard about.

The report states the operator had been drinking that day, though it does not say if or what he blew on a test.

Mixing alcohol and any type of vehicle is just not a good thing.
 

hubbard53

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jul 18, 2008
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Re: Something to think hard about.

sad. if someone jumps into a propeller it should never be the operators fault unless they guys says "I am going to jump into your prop, you better shut down" and the operator says "Screw you, buddy!"
 

salty87

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Aug 12, 2003
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Re: Something to think hard about.

what's the real story?

that article said someone jumped off the back of a boat and died...his own fault to me.

it also says the driver reversed the boat smoothly and slowly....if it was smoothly and slowly over his friend, how is he not guilty? you need to be aware of where your crew is.
 

sportsmanphil

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Re: Something to think hard about.

what's the real story?

that article said someone jumped off the back of a boat and died...his own fault to me.

it also says the driver reversed the boat smoothly and slowly....if it was smoothly and slowly over his friend, how is he not guilty? you need to be aware of where your crew is.

HAHA, there are two sides to this story and you just took a stand on both!

Boat operator had been drinking but not drunk. His long time buddy was drunk. While the operator was backing up, his drunk buddy decided to jump off the back of the swim deck and died.

DA tried to charge him with manslaughter but a board of 3 judges threw it out. DA decided to go to a different court and a group of judges said the oppposite.

So the question is, just how responsible is a boat operator for the people on board.
 
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