Honda Nightmare

My Honda Nightmare by Richard Leet<br />I purchased a new 2002 BF25 four stroke Honda in late October of 2004 from Voyager Marine in Santa Clara for about $3700. This is my second Honda Motor I had a 90 HP Honda for almost ten years purchases which I logged thousands of hours and did my own servicing even in remote parts of Mexico. I have advocated Hondas for years and am responsible for dozens of indirect purchases from friends.<br />I ran the motor for the required twenty hours and proceeded to do my first service which is in the manual and very easy task. I observed the filter to be unusually loose, which caught my attention. I have raced, built VW motors and I have done hundreds of oil changes without a leak all of my life and I am extremely diligent and thorough in my checking with a rag, running the motor, recheck , levels , rerun again.<br />I performed the service on 6-13-05 with several witness ‘s the night before I was to fish with my nephew.<br />Dennis and I ran the motor and stopped it rechecked the oil levels, wiped under the filter ( no leaks) and restarted the motor and ran it on the hose and in gear for ten minutes.<br />My neighbor Dennis W bought my old C-Dory and 90 hp Honda. Dennis is a top notch mechanic and I have observed and assisted as we tore down the 90 hp down to the block and back together in one day.<br />On about 6-14-05 I readied the boat the next day to fish with my young nephew and left the Moss Landing Harbor in fog, darkness , by GPS, with boats racing around us and breaking surf through the mouth. The motor siezed with five minutes, putting us in a very dangerous predicament.<br />We were towed in, I put the boat on the trailer, and took it to Monterey Bay Marine.<br />I received a call from the Service Manager stating” Sir, this is nothing you did. We found the filter tight, yet it was leaking oil. Upon inspection my tech found that the nipple that the oil filter screws into is not screwed all the way into the block from the factory, this is a workmanship issue”.<br />I was astounded for it explained the loose filter from the factory and the mysterious loss of oil.<br />I later received a call back from the Service mgr that Honda has come back to him and said that it was “within spec” and “not a defect”…<br />I was told that I did not add oil to the motor. I have witness’s and my years of diligence to refute this. <br />My motor went out to sea with oil in it and it lost oil through a improperly placed oil nipple. It seems to have leaked under load ( weight of 2 passengers and gear)<br />Monterey Bay Marine went to bat for me hard, over and over they approached the engineer at Honda to look at the facts, their observations of the leaking filter. The tech from in a months time never once physically inspected the motor. He told that the nipple was “in spec”!!<br />Even though it was tight and leaking oil from the bottom..this is in spec.<br />This completely defies all common sense. They found a tight leaking filter…but they are being told from Honda that this is not an issue.<br />I was then told they put another filter on and it was tight and didn’t leak oil…the motor is seized. It does not turn over…There is no oil pressure to test a problem that needs pressure to see. This is not in any way a conclusive, scientific test of any sort. The nipple should have been loctited in the upper position to check the perceived gap. Screwing another filter on will invariably move the nipple a few turns back in thus bringing it in and out of spec.<br />The tech, the service manager told me the customer should not be able to move the nipple back and forth.<br />This isn’t a defect granted..it’s a workmanship issue from the factory!. I would like to see the inspection process and criteria for this phase of the manufacturing as defined by ISO standards. Part of ISO compliance procedures is the open record for any customer or client to inspect.<br />This should have been caught in the in process QA at Honda…not by seizing and putting my life and my nephews life in danger….That nipple should not be moveable. It should cast as part of the mounting plate or tack, or laser welded in place…loctited at minimum..this was not done..that is workmanship, period.<br />I went back and forth for almost a month. Honda has disallowed this issue to taken into account.<br />The Service Mgr told me straight..”we know what we found, this is not right, this is not the Honda we know….” I had a conference, in person, at MBM with the tech, the service mgr and the office mgr…they all keep saying..” we know what we found…we are being told its not a problem or defect..this isn’t right”<br />My dealings with Honda is incredibably frustrating…they will not address why a tech can find a tight, leaking oil filter with a raised nipple and a complete loss of oil under mysterious circumstances.<br />They have told me that this is a lack of lubrication…which it is..but not on my part..it leaked out under the oil filter..this is a workmanship issue and expressly covered under my warranty.<br />Honda told me I have to have the motor taken apart at my expense to find a problem. The Service mgr at MBM feels this is a complete waste of time and money to find a mass of broken parts, especially in light of the obvious problem of workmanship. My warranty covers “ defects and workmanship’<br />I feel I have been completely sandbagged by the ego’s of a few people<br />Honda is deliberately overlooking a huge, extremely tangible piece of information and basically accusing me of not adding oil.<br />It is short of ludicrous to suggest that this issue with the nipple ( the filter was and leaking oil) has no bearing on why my motor lost all of its oil while running. To say that screwing a new filter on and seeing if it “leaks” with a seized motor and no oil pressure it not conclusive in any way. Of course it wont leak…there is no pressure to push the oil through a fine crack at the base of the oil filter. The assertion that its a sealed system is not true…just look at the mating surface of the filter..it has holes like any filter in the plate…not just one hole at the nipple like this claim would suggest.<br />The argument from the Honda techs is full of holes….If the service mgr and tech had not found this condition…then I would have no argument.<br />The following facts are irrefutable:<br />- the motor was serviced properly and diligently<br />- the motor went to sea after being tested on the hose and LOST oil.<br />- the oil was checked the morning we went out<br />- MBM found a tangible and credible workmanship issue and has made numerous attempts over thirty days to get what is fair for me..a new motor<br />- the oil filter gap was not properly gauged nor tested due to a seized motor..it is almost dishonest to say they tested it…they just looked at it….nothing more<br />- The original repair order notes “ filter tight” hence obviously it will feel tight and visually look in place.<br />- Travis the field tech never once took the time in over a month to inspect the motor. The response was he has a big territory..this is exactly why he is there ..to resolve field issues. In light of such circumstances it should have been a huge priority to find out why this motor lost all of its oil. It isn’t my problem they are understaffed...its his job to resolve it. <br />Trying to diagnose this over the phone is another example of the less than scientific or tangible way of doing things.<br /><br /><br />-The advice to spend more money to on my part amounts to me paying for an engineering study for a multi billion dollar company<br />The service manager has told it is a complete waste of time and money to tear the engine down for they found an external workmanship issue…yes, not a defect but a clear workmanship issue ( tight filter, leaking oil)<br />-I am out $4000 and Honda wants me to spend another $1000 so they can once again tell me I didn’t put oil in my motor. I have completely abandoned by the dealer I bought it from ( Voyager Marine) and by the company I have spent fifteen years advocating in an internet fishing column.<br />I was told by Honda customer service that no judge will rule in my favor without me tearing the motor down..the Service Mgr feels this is waste of time. I feel like I am being completely sandbagged by Honda.

Re: Honda Nightmare

Wow! That doesn't sound like the service we've come to expect, or they advertise. Think I'd try higher up, or different region of Honda. Good Luck,

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I'm with Jim. Sounds like you are dealing through your dealer and not directly with Honda. That would be my next step - not with the field guy either. You're right, he isn't going to break down and change his initial assessment. Try customer service.<br /><br />I had an issue with my 130 that was out of warranty and Honda covered it anyway. Could have gone either way. I do remember my dealer having to deal with a field rep and waiting around for a week before my dealer would touch the motor until that rep could inspect the problem. Eventually, the rep cleared the issue and Honda authorized the work. So my point here is that maybe the problem is with the field rep.<br /><br />Best of luck and I'm certainly interested in the outcome. I'll be looking at a new rig this fall/winter and may be motivated by your outcome.

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I am dealing with Honda Customer Relations directly at the management level...This is already there and Im getting nowhere. My buddy was ready to buy a 225 hp honda...he is now looking at Yamaha due to my problem Im having.

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hello<br /> <br /> was the filer loose at the time of seizure? was the filter leaking oil externally at the time of seizure? if you blew 5 qts of oil under the hood an oil leak at the filter would be obvious. if ya just need to pressurize the system try tapping into the oil pressure switch fitting with an external pump. some of the older auto shops may still have the bearing checker that used oil pressure and the sender hole to test for bearing leakage to determine main beaing condition. but if you did not have 5 qts under the hood it may not have anything to do with the nipple. as long as the oil cannot escape the filter you can toss the nipple in the creek.<br /> the only purpoise the nipple serves is to hold the filter oring to the housing. after that it does not care as far as oil pressure. the old filters did not have nipples just a bolt and a canister and a copper washer. many diesel filters are still that way. so was there oil under the hood? if there was not you can rule out a filter leak. I just did a 115 yamaha that blew the gasket between the oil pump assy and the block. its amazing it lived but as the oil pressure dropped the alarm went off and the guy did a shutdown. if you did not have any external leaks at the filter a teardown is mandatory. it could be a number of things that went wrong.drive shaft seals can leak, oil pumps can leak, sumps can leak.

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no, the filter was tight and leaking oil from underneath it...the nipple was too high...

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if it was leaking from underneath it then the oil filter sealing ring was not in contact with the machined portion of the block. I just cant see that happening. when you say from underneath, was it a sealing ring to block leak ?<br /> if it was and the filter was tight to the block its an installation problem. the lentgh of the nipple is not critical. their was not a spec when I was working with them. there may be now. they used to just screw into the block until they hit the shoulder. what I am trying to say is dont get so hung on a loose nipple ya forget how many other places it can leak and why.if the seal ring was tight on the block then either the seal was defective or the block surface is bad. the nipple length wont have any affect on the sealing of the filter oring to the block unless it allowed the filter to back off the block. but then you would have a lot of oil very fast and the low oil pressure alarm would sound long before seizure. it takes some minutes after dumping oil to acually cause damage. its not like it siezes at the instant of pressure loss.

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" if it was and the filter was tight to the block its an installation problem." an installation of the nipple or the filter.... tightening the filter cant be screwed up with any common sense. It seems the there was a gap created by the filter not making contact fully. In addition I never got a warning noise or alarm...it just died.

Re: Honda Nightmare

was there oil all under the hood?<br /> and if it was not leaking at the oil filter oring to block surface its not a nipple issue. thats what I am driving at. I have seen may adapter nipples from almost any make motor you can name come loose and come off with the filter.<br /> but even if the nipple was protruding and bottomed on the filter canister threads as the filter was turned it would tighten in the block. and as long as the seal between the filter oring and the block pad remained it wont affect anything. have you disscussed this problem with another Honda dealer? the time I spent working with Honda back in the 90's they did very well with odd issues.

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thats just the point..the oil was leaking out from under the o-ring with the filter tight..isnt that the nipple?

Re: Honda Nightmare

I can't believe Honda is giving you that much trouble. Let us know how you make out.

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-The advice to spend more money to on my part amounts to me paying for an engineering study for a multi billion dollar company<br />The service manager has told it is a complete waste of time and money to tear the engine down for they found an external workmanship issue…yes, not a defect but a clear workmanship issue ( tight filter, leaking oil)<br />-I am out $4000 and Honda wants me to spend another $1000 so they can once again tell me I didn’t put oil in my motor. I have completely abandoned by the dealer I bought it from ( Voyager Marine) and by the company I have spent fifteen years advocating in an internet fishing column.<br />I was told by Honda customer service that no judge will rule in my favor without me tearing the motor down..the Service Mgr feels this is waste of time.

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A couple of things don't add up here.<br />The primary fact is your motor quit and you took it in to the dealer to be diagnosed and repaired. You were under the assumption it was still covered under the Honda warranty. Your service manager was under the same assumption.<br />However, Honda has very specific policies and proceedures ( PNP )for warranty repairs. <br />Consider the next fact; Since the original diagnosis, the filter nipple, was an incorrect diagnosis (factory says it's w/in spec's), a correct diagnosis has yet to be done. <br />The factory needs a correct diagnosis to proceed with the repair.<br /> Somewhere or someone in this transaction is making it difficult.<br />My advice to you is get your complete diagnosis in writing on a repair order. Then start playing hardball.<br />The factory could care less how good a mechanic you are or how many neighbors you have. In fact, you've probably did nothing but raise a big red flag.<br />If everyone follows PNP, your story and the workorder diagnosis is all you need for the judge. Honda is well aware that judges overwhelmingly side with the consumer.<br /><br />Good luck, keep us informed.

Re: Honda Nightmare

As was pointed out, the nipple is totally within the circumference of the oil filter seal ring there is no way oil can seep unless the sealing surface is scored or the seal itself is bad, the filter lip seal is bad, or the first seal stuck to the block and when the new filter was installed, you now had two seals. We all know that won't hold oil pressure.

Re: Honda Nightmare

I have a used 45 hp Honda engine ( 1991 I'm told).<br />I have been weighing the idea of replacing it with a new Honda.I have had absolutely no cooperation from the local dealer with purchasing<br />parts. After hearing your horror story with Honda<br />I believe I will strongly consider another brand.<br />I will keep watching posts on Hondas problems that land in cosumers laps. I hope your dilemma<br />is solved satisfactorily.

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just my 2 cents but if i remove and oil filter that was not leaking and it leaks after I replace it<br /><br />and i dont run the motor with the cover off long enough to check for leaks<br /><br />how is that a honda defect ?<br /><br /><br />tommays

Re: Honda Nightmare

check the new oil filter to make sure it is not protruded down, defective causing it to bottom out on the nipple before the oil seal contacts the block, instead of the nipple being the problem. it could be that it is the oil filter company, hond or other wise that is the problem. have seen that happen before on car engines.

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Buckylong..I have a friend who is ready to buy a 225 hp Honda..I have been after him for years...his two stroke seized the week mine did on his 24' trophy...<br />He was my procurement manager and I introduced him to both salmon and tuna fishin..he knows how anal and knowledgable I am. He is looking at a Yamaha...<br />TOMMAYS- I did run the motor, and checked the oil and wiped under the filter ( no leaks) , restarted the motor, ran it for ten minutes and in gear..water flying everywhere....rechecked the oil level inspected for leaks once again..this was the day before I went out with credible witness. I rechecked the oil the next morning too infront of my nephew....could not have been more thorough....<br />bottom line is the nipple was too high and the filter tightens down but there was enough of a gap to leak oil under load ( 800 lbs of people and gear)

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hey richard<br /><br />i would just take honda to small claim. im sure the judge will see right through this matter and render and appropriate judgment.<br /><br />my 1.5 cents.<br /><br />regards<br /><br />jon

Re: Honda Nightmare

Mentioning this to customer relations the guy advised me that" Sir no judge will ever rule in your favor without taking the time and expense of a teardown to find a factory defect..."<br />and the service manager thinks this is a complete waste of time......I have thier legal address. I will of course without fail take this to court. <br />In this thread of posts they have had $20,000 of collateral damage due to lost sales...my buddy and his purchase and this other gentleman.

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20,000 in sales to a multi billion dollar company in nothing <br /><br />The issue is you are caught in the PNP game as mentioned above - somehow somewhere you are out of step with the procedures you have to get back in step.<br /><br />The customer relationship is blowing smoke about the judge who knows what a judge would actually rule...<br /><br />However, after reading your post - I think what the dealer is trying to say in a crude way, is that the seizing of an engine can result from many different issues and that to continue with the claim "someone" meaning you - needs to have the engine torn down and analyzed.<br /><br />I would take it to a DIFFERENT honda dealer to have the engine analyzed and DO NOT tell him the story above, you want to get a 3rd party independent opinion, which is what will hold up best in court, because if you sue you will be able to get back ALL damages including the analysis of the engine.