Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

sschefer

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So, how do you all feel about this subject. Do you think it will effect the boating industry? Is there a future for two cycle engines? Do you think its possible that recreational vessels might have to meet the same environmental standards as commercial vessels? Will all the lawn care people have to quit using leaf blowers? Will we have to buy a new lawnmower and start cutting our own lawns with rotatry push mowers. I live in lunatic fringe California and I believe these things could become reality if we don't do something about it fast.

Once other states see how much revenue Ca gets from fines (aka payoffs) they too will follow suit.

P.S. I don't think it will affect my digital TV signal.
 

QC

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Well I am very sceptical that we can keep this from becoming a spiraling pile of dung, buttttttt . . . Years ago I was at a truck emissions workshop at the home of the Emissions Gestapo, AKA the South Coast Air Quality Management District :eek: A nice trucker stood up and asked, "I just wanna know, when you guys get emissions down to zero, what will you do then?" . . . And they were actually speechless. Fast forward ten years and now the state is fighting the feds over regulating a component of air (CO2) as a pollutant. Well I guess he has his answer now . . . ;)
 

sschefer

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

I agree it will be hard to keep politics out of it but we can try. I talked it over via PM with Bob_VT before I started the thread and we both agreed that if it got out of hand he would kill the thread.

The reason I want to bring it to light is actually for economic reasons.
I think boaters that are getting ready to re-power or are thinking of spending a lot of money rebuilding an existing engine should be aware that some big changes are just around the corner.

It's not going to be enough to make a well informed decision as to brand anymore. We're going to have to do a lot of research to try and figure out if we can even use the motor we buy or fix.

Evinrude is definitly ahead of the game with the Etec but who knows if it will even meet the standards that some are proposing. In California it's going to be touch and go. With a broke State, anything that looks like it will generate revenue will get a green light. Theres a lot of tax money to be made if everybody has to pay a penalty for running a gross poluter motor.
 

QC

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Yeah Bob_VT and I spoke as well . . . I'd love to see this discussion remain civil. I see it similarly to fuel taxes. When I am heading to my Favorite lakes on the CA/AZ border, I buy my fuel in AZ, much cheaper . . . I'll repower and register my boat in AZ too . . . ;) Where do you think businesses will setup if the regulations are onerous?
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

If you want this thread to last longer than about ten posts, I would offer the advice that describing those with environmental concerns as "the lunatic fringe," is not going to help.

The problem with these discussions on most forums, is that whatever side seems to have the most proponents of its particular agenda, also seems to think that totally discounting the concerns of others, is OK. In short, the discussion is fine, as long as the "lunatic fringe" doesn't express an opinion, and then back that opinion up with facts.

I wish you well, because the topic is interesting. I might even contribute a thought or two if things go well. In the mean time, I'm up waaaaaaaaay to late!
 

tx1961whaler

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

I'm hoping that any regulations are not retroactive, so that already existing motors are not banned, like the way cars are now. But I think from reading here that some lakes have banned old (carb'ed) two-strokes outright. Texas doesn't seems to regulate anything until they are absolutely forced to, so I'm not very worried here. I also fish in FL, but use my bro's boat.
 

QC

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Jay,

You might consider there is a fringe on both sides though. I agree with your comments though about how these things become "a spiraling pile of dung" . . .

I actually have a decent perspective to contribute on the "other" side of this discussion. I grew up in Los Angeles. I was born downtown. When I was a kid my lungs hurt all summer long. Anytime we were outside playing (when weren't we) and especially when swimming or something vigorous, my lungs would hurt on every deep breath. The only way that you could limit the pain was to limit the depth of your breath.

Also, we are ringed by 10,000+ ft. mountains. The closest are less than 20 miles away. It used to be that most days you literally could not see them :eek: Now most days they are a beautiful backdrop to what is really a very beautiful area. As a result of many the measures taken things have definitely improved here.

Also, in the early '90s, electronically controlled diesel fuel systems were just coming of age. I worked at the local Caterpillar Dealer and I was part of some significant testing and development of some optional stuff. Part of this work required some detailed emission testing. Weeellllll, a funny thing kept showing up whenever we held the engines at a steady state for more than a minute. For 59 seconds the engine would run at 4 grams/hp/hour NOx, then . . . at second number 60 the NOx would jump up to about 11 and stay there :eek: It is fairly common knowledge that diesels run their best efficiency at around 11 grams, but being the naive guys we were we called the factory to report this anomaly, and the response was "that's normal, never mind . . . click". As part of our development work we had an insider and he sat us down and said, something like "you know all of our work is covered by a non-disclosure agreement." (the result of this story is in the public domain now, so I have no reservations discussing anymore) He continued, "but also our agreement requires that we share all relevant technical information. What you are seeing is what we call the 'ceiling map'. It is designed to put the engine into an economical mode while under a more rural load profile." Well to make this long story short Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo, Mack and International were all subsequently sued by the EPA for "tampering", by selling engines that operated outside their emissions certified modes. You see . . . the Federal Transient Procedure for Heavy Duty engines has multiple load and speed points, each lasting . . . 60 seconds. The manufacturers argument was "no, this 'mode' was tested", and the response was "get out of here, 1 second out of 60 is not representative". Which of course is true.

While there is also another side to this story, it taught me that a Libertarian approach to some issues would never work as the public would never know, and competition would drive these types of "invisible" innovations.

With that said, I cannot tolerate legislation based on emotion. And I personally believe most of the current envirnmental hype is just that, hype and emotion.
 

sschefer

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

I agree, I shouldn't use the term "Lunatic Fringe" since many folks tend to interpret it as someone who disagrees with the mainstream rather than what it is intended to refer to which is people who take things to unnecesary extremes without regards for the well being of others, (well, that was the way it was explained to me in college). I'm officially killing my use of the term...

As for clean air and pollution requlations being good or bad. I would be hard pressed to prove that they are bad. I too have experienced high levels of pollution and firmly agree that our air is much cleaner and the earth is a more freindly place since we've begun to care.

I don't want to be repetative but the idea here is to get some of us to start digging into some of our pending local legislation to find out how these changes will affect us as boaters. I am going to start searching tonight to find out what the proprosed new standards might mean for us boaters in Californina.

I just layed out a chunk of cash for a new Yamaha F150 and also just put delivery on hold. I have a 91 Mariner 100 also and may decide to run it until I'm sure that I'll be able to use the new motor for more than a couple of years. I'm pretty sure the laws won't affect the new motor but when there's nearly $20,000.00 on the line (motor, controls, steering upgrade, boat mods, etc.) I want to be sure.

That's why I started this thread, not to discuss politics. So please, everyone, leave the politcs and slamming of state and local governments out of it. Lets just find out how it might affect us as boaters.
 

sschefer

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

O.K. The request that politcs be set aside has been ignored so this thread now has no useful purpose. I've asked that it be killed.
 

BoatBuoy

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

O.K. The request that politcs be set aside has been ignored so this thread now has no useful purpose. I've asked that it be killed.

Sorry it didn't work out for you, but Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations just screams politics.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Well, its not closed yet, so maybe we can proceed with a review of current state regulations concerning outboards - what are they, what areas within the state involved are affected, what are potential regulation changes looming in that state.

Probably the easiest way to get a body of information, is for folks who want to respond, to research their own states first.
 

Bob_VT

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

O.K. The request that politcs be set aside has been ignored so this thread now has no useful purpose. I've asked that it be killed.

Patience .... this is a very worthwhile discussion and involves all the US boaters
 

QC

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

This thread seems to be self moderating ( AKA Anarchy :eek: )

Try here for good marine enviro stuff: MMA
 

sschefer

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Patience .... this is a very worthwhile discussion and involves all the US boaters
O.K. Bob, I just kinda freeked for a bit there.

So here how it all got started. My States Governor sued the US Govt over the right for States to set their own rules on Green House Gas Emmissions. He then sent a letter to President Obama asking him to ask the Federal EPA to reconsider their decision and Obama agreed.

California's current goal is to reduce Green House Gas emissions to 1990 levels by the year 2020 and 20% less by 2050.

As it stands now California Vehicle Emmisions law governing the average outboard pleasure craft say's pretty much that as long as your boat has the original motor your fine. If your original motor fails you can replace with another identical motor or a newer motor with equal or better emission qualities.

That's not word for word but it's close enough and pretty much what most of us have understood all along. There is an ammendment to the bill that created the law but it is mostly just wording changes and removes the previous vaugness that was causing confusion between two and four stroke motors.
There's some interesting things going on with aftermarket add-ons that once caused inboards to fall into a class of their own. Seems they finally figured out that an inboard engine is no different than an I/O and the add-on's are necessary. Looks like they are going to combine it all into one simple class now.

So, unless something dramatic occurs, I actually don't expect any changes and I am comfortable enough that I just called my dealer and told him to ship the new Yammie F150... It will be good until at least 2020.

My only worry right now is if I have enough gas to make it to work until payday, cuz I ain't got a dime left in the bank,, kah CHING >> === Vrooommm
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Louisiana does not seem to have any current or proposed laws in regard to outboard motor emissions. I did find references to marine discharge rules (boat galleys and/or heads), but nothing on engines. What this means is that we default to the Federal standards.

I'm not really surprised at this, because my state has not been known for tough environmental rules in the past.
 
D

DJ

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Yeah Bob_VT and I spoke as well . . . I'd love to see this discussion remain civil. I see it similarly to fuel taxes. When I am heading to my Favorite lakes on the CA/AZ border, I buy my fuel in AZ, much cheaper . . . I'll repower and register my boat in AZ too . . . ;) Where do you think businesses will setup if the regulations are onerous?

There is a reason it's cheaper...........it's CARP. AZ has some of the worst fuel quality in the country. Diesel cetane as low as 34 (I've seen) and gasoline is anyones guess, if you can see through the "floaters".:(

I just find the whole thing highly emotionally supercharged and ludicrous. C02 as a pollutant???:confused: We (mammals) exhale it (C02) in huge quantities. I see an ominous tone in that fact.
 

sschefer

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

On the left coast in Ca. ....................................................... ;) ...............................................................................................................................................................................................

My personal opinion is that California boaters will be unaffected until 2020 at least. That's a long way's away and who know's what the next regime will do. I'm not dwelling on the California issue at this point but I will keep my eye on it.

It's important to remember that the states now have control so some states may change up their stance on the issues and we need to watch for that.
 

SS MAYFLOAT

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

I think any discharge of oil is bad, but the discharge from 2 strokes when properly mixed is about as extreme as global warming. Oil floats, evaporates, and gets stuck to other stuff at the surface. Only fish that comes to the surface and sucks some in is no different than getting gas in your mouth siphoning gas out of your parents car. Besides, when handling a fish, they tend to be oily themselves?

It was before my time, but people cooked with coal and wood every day. Lots of land was cleared just for heat and for cooking. Coal burning factories, Coal fired trains, and power plants. I can imagine what the cities endured during the booming industry that built this nation. A hundred years later, we have our cleaner air, but hardly any industry like we had...........Hmmmmmmm??????
 

chick92064

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

If this is the wrong thread to pose this question, then I will not be offended to be told that by a moderator BUT, my question does regard State Regulations.
I have heard rumors that the State of Maine is going to relax the ban on body contact with the water in the 2 mile zone (lower bay) of Sebago Lake. The reasons for this are related to increasing algae blooms and algae growth on rocks etc due to the complete lack of use of the waters in this section of the lake. I can attest to the fact that the bottom was sandy and the rocks clean of marine growth when I was a young man and this section of the lake was used extensively for recreation.
Can anyone shed any light on this ? I have googled the subject as many ways as I can think of and have only found state marine biology reports that support the algae bloom portion of this "rumor"
 

Bob_VT

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Re: Deregulation of State imposed Environmental Regulations

Algae blooms happen here in VT too..... mainly blamed on the phosphorus levels increasing and they are NOT healthy. They are actually a byproduct of polution that gets into the water from ground based run-off and nothing to due with boating. It's dangerous stuff.
 
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