Unintentional VHF transmissions

Mike Robinson

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
752
Here is a fairly common scenario in my neck of the woods;

"Boater Joe" sits on his VHF microphone and sends out a continuous transmission which blocks the channel from use for anyone near by. If this happens on channel 16 not only is it annoying but a potential safety hazard. Then you get the pleasure of listening to the Coast Guard make a transmission asking mariners to check their radios which is heard by everyone on the coast EXCEPT the offender!

Is this common where you boat?

I wonder why radio manufacturers don't install a flashing light or beeper that goes off when a radio transmits over a extended period of time. Seems like a simple fix to me.

What do you think?
 

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,726
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

First of all, who in the hell sits on their mic and doesn't know it? This is common in the aviation industry with older radios, but I mean, how stupid does one need to be to sit on the mic? If it's properly mounted, it's on the dash anyway, out of the way. I just don't see how what you stated would be very common, at least in the boating world.

Second, radios have a built in timer. After so long, the radio will stop transmitting, to prevent exactly what you describe. And some of them do beep. They all have a transmit indicator on the display, but I guess if you're so oblivious to the world that you don't know you're sitting on a baseball sized mic you're very unlikely to notice the little "tx" indication on the display.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

First of all, who in the hell sits on their mic
and doesn't know it?

You have to ask??? Have you seen the obesity figures lately???

waterinthefuel said:
This is common in the aviation industry with older radios, but I mean, how stupid does one need to be to sit on the mic?

Or the IQ figures???

waterinthefuel said:
If it's properly mounted, it's on the dash anyway, out of the way. I just don't see how what you stated would be very common, at least in the boating world.

Trust me, it is!!! Happens here all the time....

waterinthefuel said:
Second, radios have a built in timer. After so long, the radio will stop transmitting, to prevent exactly what you describe. And some of them do beep.

Not cheap marine radios, which is what the fat knuckleheads buy!!

waterinthefuel said:
They all have a transmit indicator on the display, but I guess if you're so oblivious to the world that you don't know you're sitting on a baseball sized mic you're very unlikely to notice the little "tx" indication on the display.

Yep!!!
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

gee achris......what are you tring to say?....whats your point? :D


too bad its so expencive to send out the cg after them.....(track them with triangulation) it happens on the coast all the time.......in victoria.....someone would call the bridge to lift....pass thru and then leave the mic on.....

we used to listen to that stuff all the time in victoria....even a few false mayday calls.
 

SS MAYFLOAT

Admiral
Joined
May 17, 2001
Messages
6,372
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

I know there has been times I wish there was a button or something on the mic that you would have to press to unlock the button to transmit. Like those on power tools. Something on the lines to help prevent young toddlers from playing on the radio. What would that cost to incorporate into the design,,,,,,an extra 1/4 of a cent?
 

mthieme

Captain
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
3,270
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

I have never experienced this. Most (smaller) recreational boaters don't have VHF around here.
I would speculate that it might be possible for an older unit to malfunction. Salt water and electronics don't go well together.
 

puddle jumper

Captain
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
3,830
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

We had something similar happen on our companies radios. A tourist had the same frequency on there boat. We listened to there music all afternoon.
 

Mike Robinson

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
752
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

First of all, who in the hell sits on their mic and doesn't know it? This is common in the aviation industry with older radios, but I mean, how stupid does one need to be to sit on the mic? If it's properly mounted, it's on the dash anyway, out of the way. I just don't see how what you stated would be very common, at least in the boating world.

Second, radios have a built in timer. After so long, the radio will stop transmitting, to prevent exactly what you describe. And some of them do beep. They all have a transmit indicator on the display, but I guess if you're so oblivious to the world that you don't know you're sitting on a baseball sized mic you're very unlikely to notice the little "tx" indication on the display.


Sorry for the slow reply, I haven't been online for a few days.

First I don't know that people are actually sitting on their mics, this is only a guess on my part, but they are doing something to key their mics for extended periods of time. Although the radio is normally mounted on the dash, the mic is on a cord and can be placed on a seat or what ever.

As mthieme mentioned, possibly corrosion is playing a role here and causing the PTT button to stick.

Second I haven't been able to find any information about my VHF having this time out feature you mention. (To be honest I have doubts about it as I can forsee liability issues if some ones radio timed out during a emergency!)(I have an ICOM IC-M502) When I have the opportunity I'll try a little experiment with a rubber band on an obscure channel (on 1 watt power) to see what happens. I have heard peoples radios transmit for over an hour on several occassions.

Is there any one here who has some technical knowledge about this issue?
 

xtraham

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
1,425
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

Sorry for the slow reply, I haven't been online for a few days.

First I don't know that people are actually sitting on their mics, this is only a guess on my part, but they are doing something to key their mics for extended periods of time. Although the radio is normally mounted on the dash, the mic is on a cord and can be placed on a seat or what ever.

As mthieme mentioned, possibly corrosion is playing a role here and causing the PTT button to stick.

Second I haven't been able to find any information about my VHF having this time out feature you mention. (To be honest I have doubts about it as I can forsee liability issues if some ones radio timed out during a emergency!)(I have an ICOM IC-M502) When I have the opportunity I'll try a little experiment with a rubber band on an obscure channel (on 1 watt power) to see what happens. I have heard peoples radios transmit for over an hour on several occassions.

Is there any one here who has some technical knowledge about this issue?
I'm a ham radio operator and I've never seen a radio with a T/X timer, I'm not saying that there is no such thing, I've just never read nor witnessed one myself, I have though seen mics with PTT unlock button
 

SgtMaj

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,997
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

I'm a ham radio operator and I've never seen a radio with a T/X timer, I'm not saying that there is no such thing, I've just never read nor witnessed one myself, I have though seen mics with PTT unlock button

It would be a very simple and cheap extra little circuit to add.
 

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,726
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

I'm a ham radio operator and I've never seen a radio with a T/X timer, I'm not saying that there is no such thing, I've just never read nor witnessed one myself, I have though seen mics with PTT unlock button

Just because you've never heard of it, or anyone else on here has heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Here is a quote from the review of my radio which is 10 years old:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Univers,Zurich BT][SIZE=-1]In accordance with FCC rules, the radio's transmitter will be automatically interrupted and an audio alert tone sounded if the microphone's press-to-talk button is down for more than five minutes.[/SIZE][/FONT]
It is an FCC rule that after 5 minutes the radio stop transmitting.

http://www.si-tex.com/html/electronics_hands_on__si-tex_m.html
 

Splat

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,366
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

Unknown if it's a FCC rule for marine band radios.

I can tell you this. A TX Timeout is very common, and a standard feature on most mid to higher end walkie talkies. It's normally a option of feature that you have to activate.

On our radio system at work (Motorola EDACS trunking) we have all our radios set to timeout out and alert (audible beep) after only 30 seconds. You will then have to release the PTT button and hit a shift key on the radio to clear the timeout message, and allow the radio to TX again. We work in a steel mill and everything around here is big hot and heavy. A open mike for a longer period than that has the potential to cause a safety hazard should someone need to call for help, or to stop a lift etc........ Our FCC license states that the radio system, is for "general communication" thus transmissions should be kept short and to the point.

Most open MIC's are caused from hand held radios. Normally from guys putting them in their back pockets and sitting on them. It's easier than you think to manipulate the radio to hit the PTT button.

On a funny side note, when there is a open mike after the transmitting stops someone will always come on the air and state "open mic" or something like that. It's funny watch every one grab their radios out of their pockets and say "oh S..., hope it wasn't me, the boss doesn't need to hear that coming from me"

Since were diving into it. Ours along with most police departments have the ability to "listen in" on a specific radio. If a dispatcher or supervisor suspects something is wrong they can dial up that radio, and key it up to determine if the officer is in trouble. Most newer police radios have a button on top, Normally red that acts as a panic button. More on that later.

Also our county fire dispatch uses a semi-duplex repeater system. This system uses "PL" codes. With out getting to technical PL=private line. When you key up the radio the radio sends out a IN-audible tone with the transmission. The repeater listens for this tone, when it hears it the repeater will then break squelch and TX the signal to everybody else, but at a higher strength. The point here, only radios with this correct PL code(fire and rescue personnel) can use the repeater, even if others are transmitting on the same frequency.

Why did I bring this up?????? O yea that's right open mic's..... Duh

OK. In the event of a open mic, the dispatcher can do one thing to stop it. They can basically tell the repeater to stop transmitting for a split second. This causes the repeater to listen for that PL code again before it starts transmitting. Now even though there's a open carrier, (open mic) the radio only sends that PL code on for a split second on TX. Since the radio never stopped transmitting, and started again, the repeater dosen't hear the PL code and won't key up. It's a pretty good way to stop a open mic and free up the channel.

Ahhhhhhhh.... But there's a catch. IF someone Keys up their radio while the previous open mic is still going on, the repeater will hear the PL code and begin to transmit, BUT even after the second radio ceases to stop transmitting, the first radio with the open mic will continue the carrier, thus continuing the repeater to continue TXing. Thus starting the process over of having to momentarily stop the repeater from listening. This is why we still have and use time-out timers in the Fire and rescue field.

I'm not really sure why I dove in that far, but there's the basics on Open mics, and ways to stop them. Yes I work with this stuff all day so bring on the questions.

Bill
 

Mike Robinson

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 29, 2005
Messages
752
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

Here is an excerpt from a reply from I received from ICOM;

"This is a longstanding issue whose responsibility unfortunately lies on the end user. According to FCC and therefore Industry Canada regulations a Marine radio cannot TX continuously for more than 5 minutes, and because of such regulations we have a TOT (time out timer) built into the radio which will kill TX after said time period. This timer can be defeated through software reprogramming of the radio but currently is the only safeguard on the manufacturer side. When users attain their Marine operators VHf license the course provides information on proper protocol and etiquette for VHF use but that guarantees nothing if the end user chooses to not comply"


I am wrong, Marine VHF radios are made to time out. You are correct waterinthefuel!

Thank you all for your responses.
 

xtraham

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
1,425
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

Just because you've never heard of it, or anyone else on here has heard of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Here is a quote from the review of my radio which is 10 years old:

It is an FCC rule that after 5 minutes the radio stop transmitting.

http://www.si-tex.com/html/electronics_hands_on__si-tex_m.html
operators manual? are you kidding?
I guess I've never talked for 5 min's continuously :D
I did say that I was not denying that the feature did not exist, only that I've never witnessed it, it is a great feature if nothing else to protect the final transistors in the transmitter
 

Splat

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,366
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

operators manual? are you kidding?
I guess I've never talked for 5 min's continuously :D
I did say that I was not denying that the feature did not exist, only that I've never witnessed it, it is a great feature if nothing else to protect the final transistors in the transmitter

I think anything over 30-40 seconds is a long time to TX personally. Watch a clock for 30 seconds let alone 5 minutes, what could you possibly talk about for that long.

Bill
 

Pierutrus

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Messages
721
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

I think anything over 30-40 seconds is a long time to TX personally. Watch a clock for 30 seconds let alone 5 minutes, what could you possibly talk about for that long.

Bill

You might want to ask a female that one.:D
 

Splat

Lieutenant
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
1,366
Re: Unintentional VHF transmissions

Touche, and I digress


Bill
 
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