Engine and electronic systems

I just purchased an 85 HP jonson outboard. I wasn't able to hear it running.
I have the controls that went with it. I mounted it on my boat and while using a flush attachement and the lower end in a container of water I was able to get this unit to fire and run for several minutes and after it died I noticed that the engine was a little warm. I had to activate the starter at the solenoid to actuate the throttle to keep it running as I haven't mounted the key switch and the controls yet. My problem is that the engine will seemingly only fire or kick when releasing the starter engagement and at the same time moving the lever where the throttle attaches to.I observed this whille having a plug removed to observe spark and while cranking there didn't appear to be any spark until releasing the solenoid.
I never fiddled with the adjustments of anything on the motor (yet) but not this motor won't run only kick once in a while. I also had the motor kick and fire while bumping the stater and now it seems the saterter shaft was bent in this exercise and now I have to replce the starter.
The motor has been converted over to breakerless igniotion by someone with a bombardier ignition module. I have a manual on order but until I have something to read I'm at odds to determine the cause of the hard starting or any adjustments. I was told before I bought the motor that it had 140lbs compression. Is that good. Since I had it running I took my own readings and they were quite different more like 100lbs on #1, 2 & 4 and 95lbs on #3.
Could the problem be a timing issue and how does one adjust the timing?
I have since replaced the water pump impeller.
I had difficultis in aligning the water tubes as it seems that someone had managed to magle the one end of the copper tube. I attempted to reshape it to work with the guide. Whe reassembling it I hope I got the damaged one inserted correctly. I haven't had it running since the starter was damaged. I also noted that when moving the lever that is connected to the trunuion back and forth it would attempt to fire the engine by obviously actiavting the ignition system simlar to starting.
In addition is there two serial numbers on a motor one for the power head and one for the lower end or main unit as I suspect this motor may have been rebuilt ot switched?
Hopefully someone can help with this.
Thanks so much

Re: Engine and electronic systems

an 85 what? please read, http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=250879

Re: Engine and electronic systems

I'm sorry I forgot it's a 85hp Johnson electramatic. I recently discussed some further details with a local marine repair shop who hasn't worked on this old of a motor for at least 3-4 years and apparently doesn't want to involve himself to deeply with older motors. It seems there is, without my having any printed material yet to refer to, under the flyhweel a distributor cap and rotor as well as either two double or four single coils. I haven't attempted to remove the ignition cover which would allow me access to the above for inspection. There could lie my apparent spark problem. Is there a means of timing an electroinic converted egine or is it all in the module rotor and cap? Could there be some carbon build up on this distrubutor cap or a burned rotor?
Thanks
Ron

Re: Engine and electronic systems

What is the model number of that engine. We need that in order to determine exactly what engine you have.

Re: Engine and electronic systems

Ok here is the model number as read from the lower end housing 85ESL69E

Re: Engine and electronic systems

I'm still searching for a repair manual and think my local marine repair shop may have located a supplier who has one for me. Will know by the weekend. But that won't cover a converted ignition system I don't think?
Ron

Re: Engine and electronic systems

Your post would be easier to read if it were broke it up into shorter paragraphs.

85ESL69E is a 1969 85hp Johnson. The problem with the engine not firing until the key is released is usuallydue to the old starter drawing the voltage away from the amplifier. The cure is as follows.

(Voltage Drop To Battery Capacitance Discharge)
( Pulsepack When Electric Starter Is Engaged)
(J. Reeves)

On the older Battery Capacitance Discharge ignition systems (1968-1972), the electric starter reaches a point, even with a top notch battery, whereas the starter will draw excess voltage/current/whatever which results in a voltage drop to the pulsepack. The cure is to purchase a diode which is capable of handling 12 volts and installing it between the starter terminal of the starter solenoid (NOT the battery cable terminal) and the wiring terminal that supplies voltage to the pulsepack.

The diode must be installed so that the current flows from the starter terminal of the solenoid to the pulsepack... NOT vice versa. When that diode is installed in this manner, when the key is turned to the start position, the voltage that is applied to the starter is also applied directly to the pulsepack via the diode effectively eliminating the voltage drop and energizing the pulsepack with the required voltage needed for its proper operation.

Re: Engine and electronic systems

Joe, quick question if I may:

I understand the reasoning to parallel the existing B+ power pack supply off of the starter solenoid. Do you happen to know what the current draw of the pack is , to properly size the diode?

Re: Engine and electronic systems

Sorry, no. Simply obtain a diode that will handle that automotive of marine type battery's voltage. That will do the job.

Keep in mind that you can obtain 12 volts from a series of 1.5v AAA batteries.

Re: Engine and electronic systems

Thanks Joe. I haven't got that far yet in my diagnosis. I just got the rebuilt starter back as the old one went kaput during my attempts to get this thing running. In addition I also just received my seloc manual which I had ordered last week.
Apparently I have a model which was indicated to me by the seller that someone else had made a conversion to breaklerless ignition or electronic style something like that.

I have a bombardier amplifier pack on the aft of the engine with a couple of wires sealed in epoxy and a couple of wires with the same method of bon ding together at the the key switch.

I recently carefully removed the flywheel and distributor cap and found that I actually have breaker points to which I wasn't quite sure. I didn't check the gap or mess with any current settings but I did notice where one of the point wires was attached to one of the terminals the insulation was a little compromised so I wrapped some electrical tape around it so it might not short out if at all possible.

I still haven't been able to get a fire since I had it running before the starter shaft got bent.
When I move the lever which activates the timing plate I sometimes can hear a small snapping sound as well as with the key on I can hear a clicking sound from the amplifier pack.
My local marine mechanic calls this type of older motor "old junk" which wasn't any good when it was first produced and still isn't any better today?
He really doesn't like electric shift or older unreliable style engines.

I now have at least a manual to initiate some basic sequential toubleshooting procedures which should point me m ore in the right direction.
As far as I can tell at this point I'm getting spark I just don't know if it's both at the right time or sufficient to fire the plugs properly as it seems I'm getting fuel.
How does one test the rotor?

I haven't checked the gap on the plugs not the points but will check the plugs for type and gap.
As well I'll eat breathe and sleep with this manual until I know this engine more or less inside and out electrically.
Keep the suggestions and helpful advice coming.
Thx
Ron

Re: Engine and electronic systems

By the way Joe does this diode adversley affect the amplifier pack such as send more voltage than necessary to damage the amplifier pack?
Ron

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

On another topic Joe. This boat I'm working on has the rack & pinion style steering gear in it and the motor I have had a bracket on the mount which would usually be used for the steering mechanisimsfor cable and tiller style steering , what do I need and how do I install what is required to screw the end of the cable into to connect the steering gear to the motor?

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

The pulsepack demands 12 volts. The battery supplies only 12 volts. It is impossible for the diode arrangement to enable a voltage supply exceeding 12 volts.

The steering question I'll leave to another. My line was engines, not rigging.

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Ok fair enough regarding the the rigging question. I'm a little new to this forum and will have to learn the format.

I understand what you have said regarding the pulsepack as I did see this point mentioned in the seloc manual I now have.

Question number one where will I be able to acquire a diode of this type?

Do you know what a S80 or a M80 Testor is (according the the repair manual)
and is there an equilvalent when it comes to testing procedures?

In the meantime back to the subject of no start or spark problems.
When I first connectd this motor to a battery source and attempted to start it it did fire and run for several minutes. I am understanding of what you have indicated to me and am in the process of troubleshooting where the problem now lies and will eventually get it with some help but what I'm confused about is why it did fire and run initially and since I got the starter back and just before I can't even get a kick.

I'll be checking some of the sequential trouble shooting procedures today as I just got the starter back and installed yesterday. I would assume from what I've read so far that the breaker points rarely require much maintenance and unless theyr'e compromised noting needs to be done here.

Could this problem mainly or exclusively be due to the pulsepack alone and is this one of the common problems with this type od ignition system which was never really updated or imptoved upon by the manufacturer from back then?

I'll be checking my mail later today to view your reply.
Thanks
Ron

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

The diode can pe purchased at any electronics type store, including Radio Shack.

The old S80/M80 meters are a thing of the past. It's just as easy to check the various components using an ohm meter or the engine components themselves..... switching wires to coils, from timer base to powerpack, etc.

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Hi Joe thankls for the help so far.
After I asked about the diode I also figured I could also get one through the local alternator rebuild shop too.
Regarding the S80-M80 tester following the test sequence procedures outlined in the Seloc manual for the amplifier, it seems that either when I used a 30amp charger to act as a backup for the battery this may have affected the rectifier?
In addition I followed the test procedures from the ignition switch test (which was ok) thern to the voltage draw test ( this was also ok) then to the amplifier output test (it was ok as well) then the first amplifier test, in which i substituted the S-80-M80 mtester for an ac/dc neon tester capable of 500 volts ac and this test using blue wire from #5 terminal didn't light while cranking the engine. Book said that if tester light went on the coil was defective.
Next test second amplifier test was the same as previous test but also to disconnect the quick connect between the amplifier and the point set and ground the amplifier wire which only silenced the clicking sound of the amplifier and didn't illuminate the light on the testor.

While I was doing this I observed a wire on which I think is the rectifier if I read the wiring diagram right in which the insulation is cracking and while I was attempting to remove it I noticed a spark from the exposed wire to ground.
The engine did fire or kick at least a bit long before this happened. I removed the recitifier to wrap some electriccal tape around the exposed wire and put it back into place and tried to start the engine again but without success or any spark at all even when removing a plug wire to see if there was a spark there but no luck on that one either.
I think from what I have read so far that if the rectifier is faulty or defective then the starting system will operate but without spark or no fire is this right?
This could be my no fire problem as I see it now.
I haven't continued on with any tests which include coil output or point set condition.

What does this little guy look like a round metal housing with three wires coming from it and fastened to the aft of the motor near or just above the amplifier and just below the terminal block sealed with epoxy in the rear and about the size in diameter of a quarter or so?
I'll have to price this fella this week to see how much it'll cost.
Ron

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

(Small Rectifier Test)
(J. Reeves)

Remove the rectifier wires from the terminal block. Using a ohm meter, connect the black lead of the ohm meter to the rectifier base (ground), then one by one, connect the red lead of the ohm meter to the yellow, yellow/gray, then the red wire (some rectifiers may also have a fourth yellow/blue wire. If so connect to that also). Now, reverse the ohm meter leads and check those same wires again. You should get a reading in one direction, and none at all in the other direction.

Now, connect the black lead of the ohm meter to the red wire. One by one, connect the red lead of the ohm meter to the yellow, yellow/gray, and if present, the yellow/blue wire. Then reverse the leads, checking the wires again. Once more, you should get a reading in one direction and none in the other.

Note that the reading obtained from the red rectifier wire will be lower then what is obtained from the other wires.

Any deviation from the "Reading", "No Reading" as above indicates a faulty rectifier. Note that a rectifier will not tolerate reverse polarity. Simply touching the battery with the cables in the reverse order or hooking up a battery charger backwards will blow the diodes in the rectifier assy immediately.

(Battery Capacitance Dischage Powerpack Test)
Various OMC Engines - 1968 to 1972)
(J. Reeves)

Purchase a small 12v bulb at your local automotive parts store (the 12v bulb is to look like a flashlight bulb, not a headlight bulb). Solder two wires to that bulb, one to the side of the bulb (ground), and the other to the positive point. You might use a bulb of a somewhat lower voltage to obtain a brighter glow... just a suggestion.

Remove the spark plugs. With the key in the on position, make sure that you have 12v going to the pack at the terminal block (purple wire). Now, connect the ground wire from the bulb to any powerhead ground. Connect the wire from the positive point of that bulb to the powerpack wire that is connected to the coil wire on the terminal board (blue wire).

Crank the engine and observe that bulb closely (CLOSELY!). If that bulb glows even the slightest bit, the powerpack is okay. It may be a very dim glow... just so it glows! If it doesn't glow, the pack has failed.

Keep in mind, that type powerpack (Battery Capacitance Discharge) demands a top notch battery of at least 70 amp hours. Any less will, in time, cause powerpack failure.

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

Re: engine and running gear such as steering

HI Joe. Thanks for the prompt reply. I'll check that information out.
Regarding the power pack failure will this failure because of a less than desirable battery happen slowly or quickly, and is this one of the common problems associated with this particlular system, and did they improve on this with later models?
In another context is there any other improvements to be made regarding this problem of the battery amperage or just to have a high enough amp
rating on the battery and to maintain an adequate charge?
In addition to this information how does one determine if the alternator is fun ctioning properly, would that be to connect a volt meter at the battery once the engine is running to view the voltage if above 12 volts similar to automobiles or does it work this way?
Thanks
Ron

Re: engine electrical

Re: engine electrical

Hi Joe thanks for the outline and test procedures explained.

From what I've observed in the first part of the rectifier test a reading is observed at the two yelow wires, reversing the ohm meter leads gives a reading on one yellow wire (yellow/grey) only.
The second part of test no reading is observed at all. Some of my basic elctronic theory from early high school is coming back to me, lol.

It would appear that the rectifier is therefore defective.
I haven't conducted the battery capacitance discharge test yet but will do so when I get and install the new rectifier and let you know the results.
By the way will this faulty rectifier have to be replaced prior to conducting the Battery Capacitance Discharge Power pack Test?

By the way I caught your comment regarding the model# of this motor, I know that Johnson and Evinrude are close cousins but is this model actually an Evinrude and not a Johnson and from visual observation only the engine cowl misleads one to believe it's a Johnson unit?
Thanks again
Ron

Re: engine electrical

Re: engine electrical

My apologies, 85ESL69E is of course a 1969 85hp Johnson (Original Post Edited). Sometimes my fingers move a little faster over the keyboard than my brain does. The difference between the Evinrude and Johnson engine at that time was the color of the paint.

The rectifier does not need to be present in order to do the pulsepack test.