Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

I just bought a 1986 Bayliner Capri with a Force 125hp motor. and i checked the fluids and everything and lubricated everything that needed to be. and checked the fluids etc. juts the general stuff that's supposed to be done.

Before i went out this morning i filled it up with 87 and mixed the oil with it just like your supposed to and added some lead substitute as the manual said to the mixture it was also supposed to be.

I took the boat out for the first time today and it had a little trouble starting. no big deal after a few rounds with the choke it finally fired and idled just fine.

After i got away from the dock and out of the no wake zone i figured it was warmed up enough and i would open up the throttle and see what it had...

Well i slowly pushed the accelerator forward and to my surprise... it dies. so i restart it put around a little and decide to try it again..it dies. so i restart it one more time and SLOWLY(like a snail) ease into it and it speeds up to a fast paced rate of 15 mph! that was maxed out. and it soon started to crap out and sputter so i back down the throttle back to neutral wait a minute try it again and it is soon doing the same problem. So i figured i would just putt around. try my luck at fishing or swimming or something. didn't want to waste the day.

Well then i put it in neutral shut off the engine and swam around. a while later i started to go back to the marina/dock. to my surprise it wouldn't go into the forward gear. to explain the situation a little better i will give you blow by blow. started engine, let it idle a minute, pushed throttle forward, started to rev it up. wasnt going anywhere so i stopped checked everything nothing cought on the prop. tried it again still same problem. would rev up but wasnt in the forward gear. and if i left it revved up for to long it would eventually catch the gear and with a loud thump would start going forward and stop again as fast as it started. after one round of this i shut off the engine got in the water and inspected more closely, after finding nothing i decided that unfortunately i would paddle the boat back to the dock. after 10 seconds of getting nowhere because of the waves i started it up again. this time trying reverse, worked great and there was power in that gear too! seemed like the engine was going to rip off the transom! 10x the power of forward! after slowing down to a good pace and knowing it wasn't going to do the same as the forward gear i revered all the way back to the dock. what a long ride. so pulled it out of the water on the trailer brought it home, was looking at it and had told my wife to put the throttle into forward(key off, battery off, engine not running) and i spun the prop around by hand and could hear a clicking sound. i then asked her to do this in the reverse part of the throttle. and i couldn't turn it with ease like i could in the forward position. could this explain the lack of power all the way around? or is the lack of power with the engine separate from not being able to go forward. i forgot to mention that with the engine in neutral it seemed like it would rev up fine to a high idle, along with a better response. not that i was redlining it so dont think that.

also i think this might be a fluid issue but the tilt/trim slowly leaks down. i have checked for leaks and there isnt any. just seems like the fluid slowly finds its way back to the reservoir. what would i need to fix this to be stable again(what parts)

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

hi, look at my post a few down from yours titled (78' 105 lower unit rebuild -pics-?'s) sounds exactly why i'm rebuilding my lower unit now. I would say your forward gear has worn past tollerance and is just riding over the rounded edges of the clutch dog. see the pics and it will explain what happens as the clutch dog and gears wear and won't stay in forward but reverse works fine. I know in my model you can rebuild it and switch the gears around because i'm in the middle of that now. i'm sure somebody here knows if yours is capable of that....

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

fishinrado said:

hi, look at my post a few down from yours titled (78' 105 lower unit rebuild -pics-?'s) sounds exactly why i'm rebuilding my lower unit now. I would say your forward gear has worn past tollerance and is just riding over the rounded edges of the clutch dog. see the pics and it will explain what happens as the clutch dog and gears wear and won't stay in forward but reverse works fine. I know in my model you can rebuild it and switch the gears around because i'm in the middle of that now. i'm sure somebody here knows if yours is capable of that....

Click to expand...

i have dreaded that possibility since i heard it happen, but!, i still have quite a bit of tolerance in the shift adjustment, i actually don't think it has ever been adjusted. if this is the problem what kind of ball park figure would all the parts cost to fix it and what would you think i need just an idea if you will. like new gear, clutch etc thanks

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

You can buy a seal kit from iboats for under $100 or a complete lower from ebay for $200 to $500. If you are handy, and have a manual, you can swap the foward and reverse cogs and that should last you for a while. I wouldn't approach any solid object with any kind of speed afterwards.

Buy a Clymer manual before you start.

Good luck,

John

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

IT won't cost you much if you do your own labor. you'll need a new seal kit (maybe $40 at most). The parts just need to be re-surfaced with a dremmel back to square. if you look at my post with pics you'll see you are only grinding down the high edge of those legs on the dog clutch. i was extremely tennative to take it all apart but to be honest it's just not that complicated once you get into it. i made a simple puller to get the shaft out; which i can take a pic or two of and post it. i've realized i also have a bad pinon nut or the like that keeps the gear from free-spinning at the bottom of the drive shaft. i would say since you have reverse you can simply do some dremmeling and change around the forward and reverse gears but it will be time consuming since you'll have to pull the whole damn lower end apart. the drive shaft will have to come out etc. but if you are going to keep this motor you literally will have taken eveything apart and know how to replace the stuff that goes. ie: water pump, impeller, seals, etc..... i got the procedure form "frank anaconda" who genaraly posts a ton here............wait till you get more posts from someone who has your exact motor before you pull her apart as i'm only familiar with my model!

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

john from md said:

You can buy a seal kit from iboats for under $100 or a complete lower from ebay for $200 to $500. If you are handy, and have a manual, you can swap the foward and reverse cogs and that should last you for a while. I wouldn't approach any solid object with any kind of speed afterwards.

Buy a Clymer manual before you start.

Good luck,

John

Click to expand...

thanks for the info. i will be looking to it after this post. i do have a service manual although its kinda old, but i dont think anything really changed. maybe i need to read this manual again but i dont think i understand what "cogs" are dont want to sounds like an idiot, and you said not to approach any solid objects with any kind of speed..are you thinking thats what caused my problem to happen? they ran the prop into a bunch of rocks or something? and would this possibly cause my poor performance with the engine? and just so everyone knows i pulled the plugs and the 1,3,4 had a dark sooty somewhat wet appearance. is this indication that the high speed jet is messed up? or something like that. compression is around 140-148 on all 4 cylinders.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

does it matter the year? as somethings on vehicles are the same from 1977 to 1993 would the lower unit from the 1986 force 125 be the same as the lower unit from a 1991 force 125? it looked the same but i dont know that it matches up

thanks

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

hey, john from md is telling you not to go wot due to the fact the gears will not be at the tollerance they once were and you could get stranded if you shear off what's left of the reverse gear. the cogs are the forward and reverse gears . just go to my post with pics and you 'll see the gear in the first pic...........

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

ok, so i checked everything and went thru everything, compression in the 140's x 4 cyl, spark - sharp blue, air fuel. etc. i ran it with the motor in a 50 gallon tub of water for a few min. well i didnt see a whole lot of water coming out of the ports. although the prop did splash it around a bit, but it still didn't push any water out the ports in neutral, dunno if this is normal for what i was doing.. and the prop turned and everything. but when i shut it off. put it in gear i could turn the prop hand and i could hear a clicking sound about every 1/2 to full revolution of the prop. i did the same thing in reverse and it seemed to turn the whole motor, as if i was cranking it. so i dont know if this is something its supposed to do or not, im assuming it not. any more input on this? what should i check next?

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN A WORN FORWARD GEAR. if you understand the pics i posted the clutch dog (looks like a big weight with crown like protrusions -six to be exact) goes into the forward gear at a 90 degree angle when you engage it. if those surfaces are now rounded (well more like 45 degress from right to left) and the forward gear is worn the same they can not hold a grip on each other. that is why when you put it in forward gear you can hear clicking . that's the gears rubbing by each other and not connecting. if those parts were not worn and you were in forward gear it would be impossible (well nearly) to move the prop by hand as now your turning the motor over. when running the motor the shafts are moving so fast they will occasionally catch and move the prop a hair at a time but will not stay engaged enough to push the boat. just the opposite of the reverse gear becasue that is not worn bad enough. that is why you can switch the gears around and your boat will work. other choice is to buy a used lower unit. *one thing you may try is to disconnect the lower retaining pin on the shift rod and move it by hand all the way up or down and see if you can gain any tollerance. that adjusment may move the dogs enough where the parts can stay locked when in gear. that however may be a very short term solution if it works........

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

Firemedic09 said:

Well i slowly pushed the accelerator forward and to my surprise... it dies. so i restart it put around a little and decide to try it again..it dies. so i restart it one more time and SLOWLY(like a snail) ease into it and it speeds up to a fast paced rate of 15 mph! that was maxed out. and it soon started to crap out and sputter so i back down the throttle back to neutral wait a minute try it again and it is soon doing the same problem. So i figured i would just putt around. try my luck at fishing or swimming or something. didn't want to waste the day.

Click to expand...

This does not sound like worn gear problem at least this part of the thread. If forward and clutch dogs were rounded the motor would have slipped into neutral and the rpms would have jumped off the scale not died. You could have worn gears but there may be something else like the pivot pin screw was removed and re inserted and it is not holding the pivot pin correctly. If it were me I would get the clymer manual, Remove the lower unit, remove the water pump and then see if you can adjust the motor into forward. If you can try turning the drive shaft clockwise. You should be able to do this real easy with the water pump off. If it works and the prop spins put the shift linkage in the total opposite position and see if the prop spins the other way. If it does you could still have worn gears but it would eliminate the chance that something is binding in the lower unit which is killing the motor at higher power. If you are not able to manually shift from forward to reverse chances are the pivot pin is busted or not alligned correctly and disassembly will be required.

Most drain plugs are magnetic so take that out and let a few drops out. Plug it with your finger and look for metal pieces. Post any results back here.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

given the possibility that the clutch and gear are worn down, would it be possible to weld the ears back up and make them square? this seems cheaper then buying a lower unit or gears, and more practical then just taking a dremel to them as they will wear down again sooner or later. just an idea

onto the next problem.

the motor runs great in reverse, instant power. in forward the boat is just gutless. but to make sure i have this straight. the linkage could bind either way in forward or reverse from the pivot point? and mine would happen to be forward? so i need to take the lower unit off and make sure that when i put it in forward that it turned with the drive shaft and in reverse also? hopefully i understand what your saying. before i start taking things apart i wanted to make sure i understand what your talking about. thanks for the help.

i will check into the manual today

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

i just looked at the manual, i guess i had one, it came with the boat, a bit older though. thanks

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

What I suggest is like doing an impeller change. You are not taking the lower unit apart you are removing it from the motor and removing the water pump. If you have not changed the impeller this is a golden oppertunity. When you remove the water pump and impeller you have virtually no resistance turning the drive shaft. The direction of rotation is clockwise. I dont know force so generalizing. If you pull the shift linkage all the way up and turn the drive shaft clockwise the prop should spin one direction. When you push the shfit linkage down all the way you will pass neutral and the prop should spin the other way. If one way or the other you are noticing binding that could be your problem. Before removing it however I think you should remove the drain plug and see what happens. Does water come out, Does a milk shake come out or does lower unit oil come out. Only let a few drops come out and plug the hole with your finger. Do you see any metal shavings? Your drain plug might be magnetic. Are there any metal shavings stuck to it?

Also as an after thought I remember reading posts on force that if the motor is not in th correct gear when removing the lower unit and reinstalling it that there will be shifting problems. Is this the first time you have run the motor. Maybe the guy you bought it from changed the impeller and did not hook it up correct. I believe both the lower unit and shifter need to be in forward gear on assembly.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

It sounds like you're not getting full engaement in forward, but you are in reverse. Without looking at but speculating, I would guess that the part, or arm that shifts the gears has too much slack in it, which could be caused by the pivot pin being taken out, and installed wrong, missing the hole in the arm, or part, inside, thus giving too much slack, causing the problem! meaning, the pin, is not thru the lever, so it can't pivot right (normally). It might be that simple, but very difficult to accomplish.

If you've got 140lbs compression, you're a Winner! my 89' 125hp Force only has 125lbs compression, and still pushes my 19' Bayliner skiboat in my signature picture to 40mph.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

ok i will do what you said. i will order the impeller and stuff for it and take the lower unit down and try that. and nobody sees a problem welding up the ears on the clutch to make them square and to factory specs again? ya i guess im a winner haha if only the rest of it ran.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

If the dogs are not worn too bad it would be cheaper to have them refaced by a machine shop then have them welded. They are so small I doubt a welder can do accurate work. When I broke my pivot pin I knew it before I took it apart. I could practically pull the shifter right out of the lower unit. Do the oil check first and report back with this information

Is this the first time you have used this motor?

If yes have you ever seen it running in a lake not on muffs or in a garbage can?

What was the condition of the lower unit oil? Water came out, milkshake came out or oil came out?

Were there any metal shavings that came out?

You might want to wait on ordering the impeller. You may need a seal kit as well. Wait before ordering parts till you know what the problem is.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

eurolarva said:

If the dogs are not worn too bad it would be cheaper to have them refaced by a machine shop then have them welded. They are so small I doubt a welder can do accurate work. When I broke my pivot pin I knew it before I took it apart. I could practically pull the shifter right out of the lower unit. Do the oil check first and report back with this information

Is this the first time you have used this motor?

If yes have you ever seen it running in a lake not on muffs or in a garbage can?

What was the condition of the lower unit oil? Water came out, milkshake came out or oil came out?

Were there any metal shavings that came out?

You might want to wait on ordering the impeller. You may need a seal kit as well. Wait before ordering parts till you know what the problem is.

Click to expand...

yes it is the first time i have used the motor, i checked the fluid after 20 minutes of trying to get the screw out with out stripping it! i didnt see hardly and metal shavings in it( i did it 2 times and maybe there was a small flake in it) it didnt look like it was critical i should say, it doesnt look like there has been any water in the lower unit. the oil is a dark brown color. actually looked like it could have been changed but i have to go get the oil first. but i was inspecting everything from the prop to the controller. well i had my wife put it in gear (reverse first, then forward) the engine off of course. well i noticed that the shift linkage wasnt completely going into forward! i was looking at the linkage where the lower unit and the upper meet together. well i noticed when she put it in forward id didnt go all the way down. so i grabben a screw driver and pushed it down the rest of the way and it was in gear. so apperently when i was greasing everything up before i took it out i must have moved something. i am going back out after the 115 degrees cools down a bit and try to adjust it. as it was firm in forward like it was in reverse. i am hopin gthis was the problem and i wont have to take the lower unit down until winter. something im not real sure about is if the lack of power was tied to this. i hope so but if it wasnt where should i look there? should i just go ahead and get a carb kit and redo the carbs before i takeit out again? i ran it after i found the loose linkage for the gear.( in a tub of water) and it seemed likeit had power, but i know this isnt considared under a load. i was also going to check the timing will any timing light work for this? i am going to get the plugs on monday so i figured i would work on this on monday as well thatway it was all done and i wasnt messing with it after it was set. thanks everyone that had input on the lower unit and i am very greatful for all your help. just need a bit more help with the fuel delivery. is the bulb supposed to stay hard while the engine is running or are you supposed to be able to depress it all the way?

thanks,
mark

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

Try this. Disconnect the battery and disconnect the spark plug wires( mark them so you know what plugs they go to). Pull the spark plugs out. You have found out now that you can get the motor in forward gear with the screw driver. With the motor in forward gear try turning the flywheel clockwise as you look down at it. Then put it in reverse and neutral and turn the flywheel clockwise. Is there anymore resistance forward then neutral or reverse? Pulling the plugs will remove all the compression and disconnecting the battery and plugs are for safety reasons so motor wont start on you. Without the compression of the motor turning the flywheel should be easy. You may only have a fuel problem but it does not make sense why reverse high speed works and forward dont.

Next the fuel bulb should stay hard for awhile as long as the motor is down and not tilted up. If you keep priming and no gas comes out of the carbs and the bulb does not get hard replace the diaphram in the fuel pump. If you have not already done so please post your model number and what year you think it is. Force used a couple different fuel pumps so in order to get you the correct part number I need the model number.

I dont want to lecture you and it is your motor but I advise against buying parts of any kind till you know what is wrong. If the diaphram has a hole in it it could be the only thing wrong with it and that part only cost a couple of bucks and you can get it at NAPA in like two days. I have seen guys go out and buy plugs, coils, rebuild kits, new water pumps and after spending a couple hundred dollars they find it is $1500 dollar blown cylinder and the motor is not worth that. It is a knee jerk response to dump money into all kinds of parts when it is not working correctly. The only thing you really need at this point because it is new to you is an impeller and a service manual. If you can not find a factory manual Clymer is good for most beginners.

Re: Force 125 forword gear/ lack of power

1986 force 125 model #1251X6A.

i did what you asked and its the same all the way around. little easier in neutral then forward and reverse but given what im moving i would expect a little difference.thanks.

i adjusted the linkage and its working fine now, in regards to shifting, dont know about the power as its not under a load when i am testing it with muffs or a tub.

this is the first time i have ever had to mix fuel where i couldnt see the mixture. when i got gas i figured out how much i was going to get. which happened to be 10 gallons( didnt know it was an almost 40 gallon tank) and mixed 15 or 16 oz of oil into the gas, plus the lead substitute.

now with the 10 gallons of gas the idiot before me ran it out of gas so that 10 gallons probably didnt do a whole lot for it! the bulb wasnt staying hard, and it would take a good 50 or 60 pumps to get the bulb to start feeling like it was pumping something. so i changed the bulb to a new one,( its a little smaller, i dont know if this makes a differance or not) and made sure all the clamps were tight from the gas tank to the fuel pump to both carbs, and i let the fuel settle back down and i pumped the bulb about 12-15 times and the bulb was hard. while i was running it the bulb stayed relativly hard the entire time. when i would run the engine with the other one i could completely depress it, with this one i could depress it maybe half. is this what im looking for? i hope i gave a lot more information that was useful then last time

thanks

mark