Kill Wire Question

Hello,

I have a 99 Johnson 225 w/VRO disconnected. I was trying to start it after getting it rigged on the boat, and it wouldn't go. I've got good gas, and good battery, but I wasn't getting spark. I did as the repair book suggested and disconnected the Black/Yellow kill wire in the PP and it cranked right over and ran great. I touched the wires together and it stopped. I've been reading lots of threads on this topic and am asking for some clarification. So does this mean the PP is bad or the wire is shorted? I did notice that the ground wire one usually sees connected to the back stud on the PP (where the nut goes to hold the top on) was not there. Could this be it? What should I do next?

Thanks,
D1

Re: Kill Wire Question

The powerpack is grounding a it should. The problem is not the powerpack.

Reconnect that black/yellow wire that you intitally disconnected at the powerpack.

Now, at the ignition switch, disconnect that same colored black/yellow wire from the "M" terminal of the ignition switch. If you now have spark, you have either a faulty ignition switch OR you have connected that black/yellow wire at the ignition switch to the wrong terminal.

Re: Kill Wire Question

Mr.Reeves,

Thanks very much....I'll try that and get back to you.

D1

Re: Kill Wire Question

I don't get it...I checked my key switch and saw that the M position had a black wire..but not black/yellow. If it matters I went from twin motors to a single and I'm using the right side controls and ignition switch. The left key switch did have the above mentioned blk/yel wire where it should be. I tired unhooking the black wire from the key switch and the motor wouldn't start. I tried hooking the left side blk/yellow to the right side and nothing. I even tried to duplicate my success yesterday by unhooking the blk/yell wire at the PP and this time it wouldn't run. I then checked to make sure the harness was hooked up properly and it is.

I'm getting plenty of gas, the boat is cranking at 900rpms...there's no spark. I'm more than frustrated at this point...what next? Help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Duke1

Re: Kill Wire Question

The chances are good that the black and yellow wire may be grounded somewhere within the harness between the ignition and the powerpack. Mr. Reeves is trying to rule out the ignition switch first which is correct.

Study the wiring diagram near the end of the following thread. It will help you to understand how the ignition switch closes the circuit between the black wire and the black and yellow wire. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ignitionSwitch.html

As you see from the diagram, the emergency kill switch could also have a loose lanyard and give the same symptoms.

Re: Kill Wire Question

Thank you for the wiring diagram. I get that part (I think). Now what should I do. If I understand this correctly, there something that is not allowing the circuit to be completed so the engine can supply the spark needed for combustion. Because my controls were 1986 vintage and this is a 1999 engine I had to go with an adapter harness, could this be a problem?

Thanks
D1

Re: Kill Wire Question

Ezeke.... Top notch diagram and explanation.

Duke.... A small addition here. There is no circuit to be completed in order for the ignition to be engaged. The circuit (kill circuit) must be eliminated in order for the ignition to exist.

The engine, with all wiring from the boat eliminated, if cranked over would have ignition as it is self generated.... it does not depend on any outside voltage source.

The kill circuit grounds out the powerpack to eliminate its function. The kill circuit is as follows.

Black (ground) wire from powerhead to powerpack. Black/Yellow wire from powerpack to ignition switch raised "M" terminal. Black wire from other ignition switch regular "M" terminal to ground.

Key in OFF mode: The two "M" terminals are connected together which effectively short out the powerpack (no ignition).

Key in ON or START mode: The two "M" terminals ARE NOT connected which allows the powerpack to function (normal ignition).

In case, you're not aware of how that ignition system functions (keeping it simple)...... The stator under the flywheel generates approximately 300 AC volts to the powerpack capacitor. The sensors on the timer base are activated by the inner flywheel magnets flying by them. The sensors then apply approximately 1.5 volts to the SCR switches within the powerpack which trigger the release of the stored voltage in the powerpack capacitor to the related coil.

Hopefully between this and the ideal info thata Ezeke supplied, you'll find the problem.

Re: Kill Wire Question

Thanks,

I had a night to sleep on it (yeah right..didn't sleep much). Like you and Ezeke said...it's a wire that's probably grounding out..if I understand this correctly. I didn't see the difference with the key switch "M's" until I read the paragraph several times. Then I noticed the Raised M and the lower M. I'm not sure that I did the original key switch test properly now..so I'll re-do it first then look at my harness. After that...I'll be in touch. Thanks again.

D1

Re: Kill Wire Question

Well here's the latest update. I did the key switch test again..and it didn't do anything..still no spark. I went back and traced all the blk/yel wires and saw that they go to the neutral safety switch at the bottom of the block. I saw that it didn't look straight up and down so I got it straight up and down and then I got spark. It still wouldn't start though and then it wouldn't give me spark. I think my battery is getting weak.. time for new one of those..barely getting 12 volts when I crank it. I don't have a safety lanyard on this system and I believe I did the key switch correctly so I don't think the problem is at the switch. When I was rooting around in the PP I noticed some insulation on one of the wires looked a little melted. Could my PP keep me from starting? How should I check the wires for a short? Is there a easier way than inspecting each one? I have a digital multimeter...although I'm not all that proficient with it yet. Directions to go are appreciated.

D1

Re: Kill Wire Question

DUKE1 said:

Well here's the latest update.... I went back and traced all the blk/yel wires and saw that they go to the neutral safety switch at the bottom of the block. I saw that it didn't look straight up and down so I got it straight up and down and then I got spark.D1

Click to expand...

I think you are getting the terminology confused.

The NEUTRAL SAFETY SWITCH is associated with the engine cranking circuit, the solenoid, and the starting motor, not with the KILL SWITCH and the POWER PACK.

Perhaps you are referring to the NEUTRAL SHIFT SWITCH which is located in the engine cowling. This switch is associated with the POWER PACK. The purpose of the switch is to kill the ignition momentarily as the shift lever moves in and out of gear in order to cushion the shifting. Typically it only kills one bank of cylinders. If you are monitoring for spark on the bank of cylinders which is affected by the NEUTRAL SHIFT SWITCH, you will observe a loss of spark when the switch is in some intermediate position between gears. To determine if that switch is the source of your problem you should be able to electrically isolate it by disconnecting the appropriate wire from it to the POWER PACK.

Another minor correction: capacitors do not store AC voltages. They store DC voltages. The AC voltage developed by the stator coil is converted to DC and then stored on a capacitor.

I believe the KILL SWITCH lead (Yellow-black) has a rather high voltage, several hundred volts, and it could be jumping to ground and spoiling the spark generation if there are any cracks or breaks in the insulation of the wires in that circuit.

Earlier you described the problem as being cured when you removed the Yellow-black from the Power Pack. This sounds like there is a stray ground on your Yellow-black circuit. You can test for this with your multimeter. It should not be too hard to locate the source of the stray ground. Well, that's the theory, anyways.

P.S. I am the author of the article about the ignition switch which was linked above. I am glad you found it helpful.

Re: Kill Wire Question

Thanks very much for the information. I'll do more checking. I don't know if this is true or not...but I FEEL like I'm getting closer to the problem. Anyway...I'll have another go at it. In my reading last night I came across this article which I thought was very interesting about using pre-1996 OMC rigging to a post-96 OMC engine. It mentioned that that the new harness would no longer support the functions of T&T and Neutral Safety Switch, and they would need to be spliced in. Even though I have a conversion harness...I still had to splice my T&T wires just like the author stated. I was wondering if this could be the reason my engine isn't getting spark...the safety switch was keeping it from firing. Anyway....I'll go through it again.

Thanks
D1



http://www.whalercentral.com/readarticle.php?article_id=38

Re: Kill Wire Question

What you refer to as a safety switch, if it is the switch incorporated with the shift linkage of the engine is actually a "Shift Cutout Switch"

The purpose of this switch is to momentarily eliminate the ignition of the starbord bank (all 3 cyls) which is needed to shift "out" of gear. Without this feature, it would be impossible to shift from forward gear to neutral due to the design of various propellers.

For ignition test purposes, you can disconnect that switch while testing and trouble shooting the wiring, then when all is well, reconnect it.

When operating properly, that ignition interference of the shift cutout switch (dropping 3 cyls) take place so fast that is almost impossible to notice.

Re: Kill Wire Question

Well...here we go. When I got this engine (used) I also got the adapter harness with it. The wires (harness) were kinda of cruddy looking so today I decided to pull off the harness, unwrap all the tape around it...and I found two things that weren't right. Both of these harnesses have Duetsch (sp) connecters. On the one that has the black & yellow wire...it was dirty but looked ok...I re-taped that one. The other one with the gray wire and the one that goes to the rectifier, it was nasty.

The insulation on the gray wire had a split in several places (re-taped it) and the wire going to the rectifier crumbled in my hand at the end. I cut on it till I got good clean wire then used adhesive lined shrink tubing to make the connection. Knowing that all my wires were now joined properly, I cranked it over and still nothing. I once again took off the Blk/Yel wires at the PP and it cranked over and ran well. I ground it out, and did it again. I then re-connected it (PP wires) and it started again, but the key wouldn't turn it off...I'll re-check my PP Blk/Yel wires again for connection.

I also did a DC check on the battery 12.7V I then went from ground to the large stud on the starter solenoid, 12.6V. I then went to the small Yel/Red wire stud on the SS and when I had my wife crank on the key..it only read 8.6V. This was before I did the wiring over...so I'll re-check that as well. It sounds to me from what you all are saying and the instructions I've been following that the problem is between the key switch and the solenoid...does this sound right? I don't think the block mounted safety switch is the problem...do you still think I should troubleshoot it? My thought is to go back to the switch as originally instructed and start there.

As always...thanks very much for the assistance and keep it coming...learning lots (the hard way).

D1

PS-When looking at the rear of the motor...where should the ground wires be for the PP...on the back right PP stud or the top coil just to the right of it? Right now there are two wires ground out to the top right coil..the blk/yel wire and a black wire.