Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

richale

Cadet
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
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16
Im looking at mid 80s trawlers..34-38 feet and wanted some advise as to which mnf at that time had the best desiel power plants . Also which power plant and drive system works the best. I just got out of my omc outdrives and dont want to end up there again...if you know what I mean.Thanks
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Moving to Boat topics and questions.
 

QC

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Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

What kinda budget? Single screw? Horsepower? I've been involved with Caterpillar for 30 years and entirely with the Power side of the biz, but I will not automatically say CAT and I will not say the 3208 which was considered by many to be a great engine, but frankly it's a pile . . . Help me a little here. I like in-line sixes, I like Perkins, I like 4 cycles, but none of that is a given.

Twin Disc for tranny but these are simple devices compared to IOs . . . Not a biggee to me.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Service, Service, Service. Parts, Parts, Parts.

I've dealt with almost all, over the years; Cat, Cummins, Detroit, S&S, Yanmar, Isuzu, Duetz, International, John Deere-mostly in "on land-stationary" applications-some marine. If "industrial" service speaks to availability, I would assume the marine world is the probably similar.

-I can highly recommend Caterpillar. Wonderful service and nice people to deal with.

-Cummins has left me "high and dry" a couple times. They have a decent product but any issues tend to get lost. Parts has never been an issue.

-John Deere makes a great engine for marine/industrial app's and service support is good-all good.

-International support is also good. I have NEVER had an issue with IH. That says a lot.

-The Ford/Lehman diesels are rock solid engine packages but the service is getting a bit scarce. Parts availability is good. Old tech. but rock solid.

-Some love Yanmar but service may be an issue (personally experienced). Parts can be a nightmare (experienced-not good). A lot of boats have been re-powered with Yan's. They are cheap to buy but service/parts experiences are not good-from what I've seen. To some, cheap is good. Nothing wrong with the engines, just support lacks.

IMHO. Cat' is the way to go. Service everywhere and good support, if you can afford it.

You have a "Cat" guy right here on iboats-QC. He's as solid as Cat is.

Stick with the "name brands" (American) and you'll be OK. Wordwide service is available on all the recognized brands, listed above.
 

dave11

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Dec 2, 2007
Messages
1,195
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

I don't know much about marine diesels, but in trucks, Cat is very good. Excellent torque/ HP. Their service is good and they are everywhere you are likely to go. They are more expensive.
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

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Aug 25, 2002
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17,651
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

22 years O/O in the trucking industry.
I started out with an old '79 Pete with a 1693 Cat in it, you talking about an engine.
That thing ran forever.
Heavy, a little noisy, but a work horse.
Then I moved on up to a Volvo with the 3406 Cat in it at 425 HP.
All good, never a problem with either of the Cat engines.
 

JCF350

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Oct 21, 2007
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1,149
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Detroit- born and bred for boats. Ain't worth spit in a truck (too much idle time). Also not near as picky about the fuel.
 

tommays

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Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Assuming :D your talking about a displacement hull it is most likely going to have a small diesel as they tend to top out around 8 to 10 MPH
 

QC

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Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Yeah ^^^^ that's why I asked about BHP. Many of the trawlers, even single screws, are semi-displacement type now (and then) and may even run twin 425's 3208TA. Some of the single screw true displacement hulls will run 135 Lehman's so . . .

I slapped the 3208 a little too hard up there, it will be in most of the CAT powered boats in the vintage range you are searching. Thing is that the service comments reminded me that this is never just about the engine design. Also, being in the power side, at the L.A. area Dealer, from the late 70's to '01, I saw more splattered 3208s than you can imagine. Most due to poor maintenance of course, but the engine does have a few oddities that I'll try and elaborate on.

3208s were the "big CAT" in the pleasure craft industry for a loooong time. Interestingly enough, for perspective, it was the little CAT within the engine world, truck, marine, power gen and industrial. It had a 4 cylinder cousin too, but never mind that :eek: They came out as the 3160 (1160 truck) in '68 or so and hung around well into the 80's maybe 90's (in trucks they went to engine heaven in '83). V8, 4.5 x 5" bore 636 CID 10.3 liter. It was rated @ 210 naturally aspirated to the first turbo'ed ones in say '80 at 250 and then up to 425 turbo'ed and aftercooled. There may have been a 435 or 450 even after I stopped paying attention. They were 2800 - 3200 RPM typically and had one issue that always made them a weak stepsister to me. The one "issue" that most will think I am concerned with is a parent bore block . . . same as a gasoline engine, no cylinder liners. The block had the cylinders cast in and they were bored. Again just like a BBC or all the other stuff we talk about here. Most diesels then had removable wet cylinder liners and the parent bore block was not considered worthy of diesels. That's not my issue, they are borable to .010, .020, and .040 over, and you can do one hole if necessary with no problems. They can also be resleeved.

My issue with them is they used a unique fuel injection pump called Sleeve Meter. Forget the Sleeve Meter description, but they were 100% fuel lubricated which caused them issues. Like anything, again, if properly maintained, they are fine, but ANY water, even trace, in the fuel system and they go to shi+ fast. If I was to own one (I would), I would have the biggest, baddest Racor or similar, water separator and watch them like a hawk. I'd also have the pump's top cover lifted for an inspection before I'd buy one. The pumps can easily be rebuilt, they may even still have Reman ones available. 3208's also use Pencil injection nozzles. Sometimes incorrectly called injectors, but that's another lesson . . . The good news is that they are easily changed by a novice, and can be carried as spares. Same thing, they don't like any water in the fuel!! (actually applies to all diesels).

Other than that all of these engines suffer from the same issues as all marine engines. Cooling system stuff. Yes, manifolds, heat exchangers, raw water pumps. Basically anything dealing with raw water. Zincs of course. Ya know, impellers, the same ole list of stuff . . .

With proper maintenance the 3208 was considered a 6000 hour engine and would do it easily. As a parts and service sales guy, then parts manager, then service manager, I saw all the bad stuff. 3208s were everywhere, especially in truck. We sold 500 complete engines a year, just as replacements, just in L.A. and Orange Counties. My opinion needs to be considered in that context. Most of the marine techs will probably think of it as a good engine, and the Yacht Brokers will be splashing it's name everywhere as a strong feature. They are not wrong. I am just a little more jaded than most. BTW, I used to defend it big time in truck. It was the first successful replacement for gasoline power in medium-duty, and people learned a lot of tough lessons at it's expense.

Let us know what you find and we'll go from there. As noted above you can NOT beat CAT Dealer service. It is amazing, and I could get you any part, anywhere in the world in 24 hours. Maybe even Antarctica. They have the best parts system on the planet, and marine service techs that do everything from replacing zincs to complete 5000 bhp overhauls on a cruise ship while she's underway. If you've never been to a major dealer, you should just take a little stroll around one. Amazing places for what is really just a big flippin' car dealer.
 

JCF350

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1,149
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

With proper maintenance the 3208 was considered a 6000 hour engine and would do it easily.
Me thinks you forgot a zero. :)

Typical 3208 life in the 50' range trawlers (commercial) was 25,000-30,000 hours, about 5 years calender time.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

^^^^^ Maybe in a continuous, low bhp application like you note. Displacement speeds etc. My number is a before failure scheduled overhaul recommendation from CAT, so I was not clear, it is really a truck number. That "service" would include simply rings, a re-hone, bearings and a valve job. It was supposed to repair CAT's reputation as an expensive overhaul and the 3208 as a "throw away" block. Yes, some will live much longer and particularly in low bhp, continuous duty stuff.

I don't ever think of a 3208 as a commercial trawler engine though. They were popular in some Lobster boats and other commercial applications, but my experience is mostly pleasure craft on the west coast. There were some commercial 32' Willard Coast Guard boats here though, planing hulls. Usually in a commercial application like a true Trawler, or smaller Purse seiner etc., that would be a pair of 3306's or 3406, 08 or 12 which are true HD models . . .

For reference, 8760 hours a year is 24/7, 2080 a year is typical workweek 8/5. Almost all other CAT diesels are recommended OH @ 10,000 hours, or more precisely, gallons of fuel by model. I believe the 3208 fuel number was somewhere around 60,000 Gallons before a scheduled (before any failure) overhaul like I noted above. HD 300 - 400 bhp class around 100,000 - 120,000 gallons etc.

Yes, with proper maintenance, they can live much longer . . . The factory numbers are catch alls.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

As much as QC would not admit this but:

The 3208 (V-8 Cat.-parent bore) was a Ford design. Actually dubbed the "1160" for installation in Ford "Louisville" series trucks (circa 1969). Very basic. NON TURBO, non anything fancy. About 160 bhp., as I recall, they were painted Red.

Cat, later, took the engine to its potential in numerus applications.

Ford had a falling out with Cat. on the V-8 engine program. Ford went with the GM's "fuel sipper-8.2L" V-8 engine from Detroit Diesel. We called them: "Blue Grenades". Read: Really BAD decision.

In Ford's defense, the Cat. engine was far too heavy to ever be considered for a light truck engine. Strictly-medium duty.

Ford went back to Cat. as the "preffered" supplier back in about 1985 until Ford Heavy Truck was sold in 1997 to Freightliner. The Ford designed truck remains as a "Sterling" in the Freightliner line.

To add to the original question. The Ford/Lehman design was based on the Basildon diesel. An English design.

The Basildon was designed in the 1950's as a tractor engine. Brutaly heavy and strong. It made its way into marine applications, shortly after that. The best marine conversion was made by "Lehman". Thus the Ford/Lehman name.

The 6.6L Ford /Lehman is legendary for its toughness, durablity and reliability.

If it were not for emissions laws (USA), the 6.6L and 7.8L Fords would still be alive today.

By the way, they still are, in South America.
 

QC

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22,783
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Your recollection is good. The ford Model names were actually V150 for the 1140, V175 for the 1145, V200 for the 1150 and V225 for the 1160 originally delivered in late '67 or '68. The 3208 was called a V636 by Ford and came out in 74 I believe. I'd bet you a beer in Havasu that Cat originally designed and built them even though I've heard your version before. They also sold them to International, also red and with a "by International" label on the valve cover. The 1150 had a 4.5 in. stroke as compared to the 3208 at 5.0 and the 45 and 40 had 4.0 in. stroke. The 40 and 45 spun 3200 RPM and the 1150, 3000, while the 1160's and NA 3208s all were rated @2800. There are Marine turbo 3208s at 3200 RPM, still with the 5.0 in. stroke. Marine and Industrial "1100's" were actually called "3100s" with the last 3 digits the same as the corresponding truck models. The main difference between those and the "3200s" (there was a 3204) believe it or not was a proper oil lubed fuel injection pump on the 1100's and 3100s. Different front cover, bigger water pump on the 3208s. 1100's had dual valve springs, but not the 3208s originally. They went back to them later with turbos. If I concentrated enough I am sure I could get the .040 over piston part number, I know the rod bearings, stock pistons, even the short block part numbers and this was flippin' 30 years ago :eek: I literally consider my experience with those engines to rival most of the guys at the factory. Not a boast, those there that knew me would agree, and I think that reputation made my career.

Super-Duty (??) Ford dealers were my best customers back in the late 70's and 80s. My first field job was calling on them and end users, selling mostly 3208 parts and 1693 stuff like Lester mentioned above. 3406's in the 9000s too. For some damn reason Ford could never get a proper 6 cylinder truck engine straight. They had to cant them, and I think it might have been simply steering stuff that got in the way. Maybe the Louisville sloped hood, don't remember. They got them straight in the C9000s though. Haven't seen one of those in ages . . . :)
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Your recollection is good. The ford Model names were actually V150 for the 1140, V175 for the 1145, V200 for the 1150 and V225 for the 1160 originally delivered in late '67 or '68. The 3208 was called a V636 by Ford and came out in 74 I believe. I'd bet you a beer in Havasu that Cat originally designed and built them even though I've heard your version before. They also sold them to International, also red and with a "by International" label on the valve cover. The 1150 had a 4.5 in. stroke as compared to the 3208 at 5.0 and the 45 and 40 had 4.0 in. stroke. The 40 and 45 spun 3200 RPM and the 1150, 3000, while the 1160's and NA 3208s all were rated @2800. There are Marine turbo 3208s at 3200 RPM, still with the 5.0 in. stroke. Marine and Industrial "1100's" were actually called "3100s" with the last 3 digits the same as the corresponding truck models. The main difference between those and the "3200s" (there was a 3204) believe it or not was a proper oil lubed fuel injection pump on the 1100's and 3100s. Different front cover, bigger water pump on the 3208s. 1100's had dual valve springs, but not the 3208s originally. They went back to them later with turbos. If I concentrated enough I am sure I could get the .040 over piston part number, I know the rod bearings, stock pistons, even the short block part numbers and this was flippin' 30 years ago :eek: I literally consider my experience with those engines to rival most of the guys at the factory. Not a boast, those there that knew me would agree, and I think that reputation made my career.

Super-Duty (??) Ford dealers were my best customers back in the late 70's and 80s. My first field job was calling on them and end users, selling mostly 3208 parts and 1693 stuff like Lester mentioned above. 3406's in the 9000s too. For some damn reason Ford could never get a proper 6 cylinder truck engine straight. They had to cant them, and I think it might have been simply steering stuff that got in the way. Maybe the Louisville sloped hood, don't remember. They got them straight in the C9000s though. Haven't seen one of those in ages . . . :)

Dang it QC, you had to go into all that detail.;) No, Ford designed it, with Cat. influence. Cat. later ran with it, to their success and Ford downfall. I was there.

The reason that Ford Heavies (8000-9000) had "Canted" engines was for two reasons.

1. CAB height

2. "sight lines".

Ford felt it was important for drivers to be able see over the hood. Again, what a novel concept.:p Against any straight, Pete/KW, Int., Volvo/White (at that time), Ford had the best "sight lines" of any heavy. But, what self respecting "trucker" needs to see where they are going? Much to the demise, to Ford, of making a driver "freindly" truck. They found out that drivers don't like to be able to see.

No offense to "truckers" on this forum. But it was frustrating.
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

To add to the original question. The Ford/Lehman design was based on the Basildon diesel. An English design.

The Basildon was designed in the 1950's as a tractor engine. Brutaly heavy and strong. It made its way into marine applications, shortly after that. The best marine conversion was made by "Lehman". Thus the Ford/Lehman name.

The 6.6L Ford /Lehman is legendary for its toughness, durablity and reliability.

If it were not for emissions laws (USA), the 6.6L and 7.8L Ford's would still be alive today.

By the way, they still are, in South America.
progress.gif
 

JCF350

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Oct 21, 2007
Messages
1,149
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

. .For reference, 8760 hours a year is 24/7, 2080 a year is typical workweek 8/5. Almost all other CAT diesels are recommended OH @ 10,000 hours, or more precisely, gallons of fuel by model. I believe the 3208 fuel number was somewhere around 60,000 Gallons before a scheduled (before any failure) overhaul like I noted above. HD 300 - 400 bhp class around 100,000 - 120,000 gallons etc.

Yes, with proper maintenance, they can live much longer . . . The factory numbers are catch alls.

Fishing time reference would be 50% or 6 months (or more if you had a greedy dumb owner/captain) out of the year running 24hrs a day.

Yep anything bigger than 50' ran the 3406s mostly if they ran CATS. Most folks used to run the Detroits.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: Which diesel mnf. shall I choose

Dang it QC, you had to go into all that detail.;) .

I was fun trying to get all of that crap outta my head. Blocking up important stuff . . . This is only the second thread about 3208s since I joined. The other was about an Alternator :rolleyes:

Ford designed it, with Cat. influence.
I saw that on your PM and I could believe that, but it ultimately had to be CAT's, too many competetive customers. GM too. It was obviously designed to go where gasoline V8s were originally.

BTW, my first Natural Gas engine project was a 3406 in a L9000 for Vons Grocery in '92. Sorry for the Hijack.
 
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