what do I have

I have a 1975 190hp 302 ford stringer drive. my freinds and myself have been arguing over what the motor is . is it a winsor block or a cleavland does it have 302 heads or 351heads are the heads cleavland or windsor heads. thanks bob

Re: what do I have

Hi bob, and welcome to iboats.

Assuming that everything is original, you should have a 5.0L with 302 heads and not 351 heads. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I belive the 351 heads were on the 240hp.

Re: what do I have

Ayuh,....

And your motor is a Windsor,.....
Ain't No Clevelands in Boats......

Re: what do I have

Bond-o said:

Ayuh,....

And your motor is a Windsor,.....
Ain't No Clevelands in Boats......

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I agree, Windsor, I had one in an 18' 1972 Wellcraft Airslot a 188hp/302 Mercruiser with a 2bbl carb, I was wanting to put a 4bbl on it, but couldn't find a used carb, & manifold, they were rare as hens teeth back in the early 80's (couldn't afford a new one) and couldn't use an aftermarket aluminum in salt water, so I gave up on the idea. The thing that stuck in my mind about that boat, somebody put AC plugs in it previously (very tight), they rusted badly, (not nickle plated), and I had to take the damn head off to get one out! replaced with Champions, Say what you will, thats why I like Champions, they're plated.


(Cleveland, No, that would have been too special)

Re: what do I have

replaced with Champions, Say what you will, thats why I like Champions, they're plated.

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Ayuh,.........

And AC Marine Sparkplugs are Alloy Bodies.......

Which gets back to using the Right plugs.......

Re: what do I have

I cant remember Fords clasifiction on the 289 and 302 motors but while shareing certain properties with the 351 windsor they were not clasified as windsor motors. the windsor designation came from where they were built just like the cleveland.
the 351M was modified cleveland, the FE series I best I recall was the 352,360,390 and a few of the 427,s. the 429 and 460 were 360 series best I recall.
I may have to go hunt my notes up one day.
mostly only the 302 and the 351 windsor were marinized, a few of the 390 and 427 were back in the late 60s early 70s. I have seen the odd 351 cleveland that was marinized by Gray marine I think.the 460 got marinized for a few years both as a stern drive and jet propulsion as did the 455 olds.

but Ford withdrew completely from the marine market about 1995 and marine parts for ford are getting as scarce as stringer parts .
my shamrock had the 225 HP 351 windsor with a 4bbl, if it ever fails it will have an MPI 5.7 GM.
kinda like the Buick 225 V6, wasnt popular but it did get used a bit.
the late 60s and early seventies s a wild time for boating.
the marine market was very small and the cost of marinizing then warrentying them was to high for many manufactures.
I was chatting with a GM rep at a boat show some years back, he said the mrine market was roughly 10% of engine sales and about 90% of the warrenty claims, which is part of the reason Ford bagged the marine market.

Re: what do I have

Bond-o said:

Ayuh,.........

And AC Marine Sparkplugs are Alloy Bodies.......

Which gets back to using the Right plugs.......

Click to expand...

At one time they weren't apparently, or it wouldn't have rusted so bad, I couldn't get it out!

Re: what do I have

The 302 marine was built like the Windsor, because it also had the same firing order, the firing order on the Cleveland was different, that's about all I know about Ford's, or all I care to know.

Re: what do I have

Mikdee
yep
I gave up all the hotrodding stuff many years ago, was a time when I could tell you the difference in the W,M and C 351 cranks heads cams and blocks, now its mostly irrelevant. I just put the package back together like Ford desighned it and it works great and never breaks .
but yes I remember playing with 351W heads on the 302 block and fighting intake mnifold issues, soon I found if ya just wanted more power they made a 460

Re: what do I have

If you ever saw Cleveland heads you'd notice the size of the ports, they're huge compared to the Windor. Never saw exhaust manifolds for a Cleveland engine. Your firing order is the same as a 351 because your engine uses a 351 cam. Look at the stock intake manifold, where the firing order is cast in the manifold, the original numbers were ground off and the 351 numbers were stamped in. I think the 302 firing order was 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8, the 351 was 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8.

Re: what do I have

MikDee said:

The 302 marine was built like the Windsor, because it also had the same firing order, the firing order on the Cleveland was different, that's about all I know about Ford's, or all I care to know.

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Um...no I think you even got that wrong. The first small block Ford was a 260 If I recall. (Might be wrong on the exact size of that) Then came the 289 and then the 302. The 260 had different heads because the pistons were small and you could not get a decent sized exhaust valve in there. The 289 and 302 were virtually identical except for the stroke. The 351 Windsor had the same bore as a 302 but, had a even longer stroke. Because they used the same length connecting rods to keep the rod stroke ratio correct the 351 had a taller deck hight and a wider intake to match. The early 351's had better heads and if I looked I could find you the casting numbers but, to save money the later 351's just use the same heads as the 302.

Now, as for the firing order the 260, 289. and 302 all had the same order. But, when Ford redesigned the 302 to be a 351 it changed the firing order to take loading off a certain main bearing (sorry forget which one) When Ford turned the 302 into the 5.0 in the 80's it used the 351's better firing order.

As a side note. Ford also built another small bloc in the smog era called the 255. It ran from about 80 to 84 or so. But, it is hated because it had really horrible heads. AS soon as fuel injection came out ford could get the same mileage and emissions with a 302, oops I mean 5.0, and so the the 255 was dropped. I have a 255 in a 81 t-bird I own now. Very dependable but, very underpowered.



Any more questions?

Re: what do I have

In 1962 the fore runner to the 260 was a 221 V8.

Re: what do I have

Caveman Charlie said:

Um...no I think you even got that wrong. The first small block Ford was a 260 If I recall. (Might be wrong on the exact size of that) Then came the 289 and then the 302. The 260 had different heads because the pistons were small and you could not get a decent sized exhaust valve in there. The 289 and 302 were virtually identical except for the stroke. The 351 Windsor had the same bore as a 302 but, had a even longer stroke. Because they used the same length connecting rods to keep the rod stroke ratio correct the 351 had a taller deck hight and a wider intake to match. The early 351's had better heads and if I looked I could find you the casting numbers but, to save money the later 351's just use the same heads as the 302.

Now, as for the firing order the 260, 289. and 302 all had the same order. But, when Ford redesigned the 302 to be a 351 it changed the firing order to take loading off a certain main bearing (sorry forget which one) When Ford turned the 302 into the 5.0 in the 80's it used the 351's better firing order.

As a side note. Ford also built another small bloc in the smog era called the 255. It ran from about 80 to 84 or so. But, it is hated because it had really horrible heads. AS soon as fuel injection came out ford could get the same mileage and emissions with a 302, oops I mean 5.0, and so the the 255 was dropped. I have a 255 in a 81 t-bird I own now. Very dependable but, very underpowered.



Any more questions?

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I had the 188hp /302V8 and I believe it had the same firing order as the 351 Windsor, at least if my memory serves me right according to the Clymer Mercruiser manual. The 351 Cleveland, & some of the 302's had the same firing order, which was different then the 302 Windsor marine version. As I said, I'm not a Ford guy, so don't know the history, nor do I care, but I do know the history of the small block chevy, in fact I've had them mostly over the years.

Re: what do I have

As I recall, the Cleveland (351.. no such thing as 302 Cleveland ) also had canted valves for improved flow

Re: what do I have

The marine 302 used both the cam from the 351 and the heads.
The 262 had a problem with oiling of the rockers and they produced a kit where you drilled a hole in the valve covers and installed a oil line from one of the oil pressure ports and tapped it into the rocker assembly.

Re: what do I have

Capt Ken said:

The marine 302 used both the cam from the 351 and the heads.
The 262 had a problem with oiling of the rockers and they produced a kit where you drilled a hole in the valve covers and installed a oil line from one of the oil pressure ports and tapped it into the rocker assembly.

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OK, well that explains the firring order. Leave it to Ford to figure out yet another way to complicate things. I've driven them for years and had good luck but, even I can't figure out why they do some of the things they do.

Re: what do I have

univercity of funk said:

I have a 1975 190hp 302 ford stringer drive. my freinds and myself have been arguing over what the motor is . is it a winsor block or a cleavland does it have 302 heads or 351heads are the heads cleavland or windsor heads. thanks bob

Click to expand...

If you can put a socket and extension on the bottom thermostat bolt it's a 351W if not it's a 302. The only stuff that swaps from the 351W are the cam and heads. The 351W has larger main and rod journals and a way stronger block casting.

I have seen a few Cleveland's in boats (after market packages) but only rarely

BTW Cleveland heads will fit the 351W's and 302's but you have to machine the very top of the cylinders for valve clearance in the 302's and block off a coolant passage or 2 in the block.

Re: what do I have

JCF350 said:

If you can put a socket and extension on the bottom thermostat bolt it's a 351W if not it's a 302. The only stuff that swaps from the 351W are the cam and heads. The 351W has larger main and rod journals and a way stronger block casting.

I have seen a few Cleveland's in boats (after market packages) but only rarely

BTW Cleveland heads will fit the 351W's and 302's but you have to machine the very top of the cylinders for valve clearance in the 302's and block off a coolant passage or 2 in the block.

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I Thought that you also had to drill a new small hole in the Cleavland heads through the proper coolant passage to let the water flow correctly too.

It's all a moot point anyway. All the new aftermarket heads are better then any of those old ones.

Re: what do I have

Caveman Charlie said:

I Thought that you also had to drill a new small hole in the Cleavland heads through the proper coolant passage to let the water flow correctly too.

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yep

It's all a moot point anyway. All the new aftermarket heads are better then any of those old ones.

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maybe

All the new OHC and DOHC "hemi-head" designs render pushrod motors obsolete though. Pretty soon Nascar will be running antique engines.

Re: what do I have

The 302 H.O had the 351W cam giving it the 351w firing order same as your boat. Can pull the valve covers off will say 351 or 302. If your lucky you have dooe heads. Whats the engine numbers on the block say.

And there is a 302 cleveland its called a 302 boss.