Solenoid ???

1981 90 HP Johnson

I turned the key and could hear the solenoid click but the starter motor didn't run. Tried 6 or 8 times and same thing. Pulled the cover, wiggled wires, nothing seemed loose. Tried starting a few more times with the same results then finally it worked. After that it was fine.

Solenoid, right? (Especially since the starter is only a month old). Is it possible to clean the contacts on this solenoid, or am I going to be getting a new one?

Re: Solenoid ???

Try cleaning all connections and if still does it hook a jumper cable to positive post on starter and other end to batt. if starter spins then change selenoid.

Re: Solenoid ???

You should do some more troubleshooting before spending money. If the starter doesn't spin when the key is turned people have a tendency to replace the most expensive part of the system (the starter) and then can't imagine why it didn't fix the problem. There are a few quick checks that can be made to isolate the problem, then repair what's broken and the starter should be the LAST thing to worry about. So now that you have the lecture, here's what you do:
1) Make darn sure you have a good battery and that it's fully charged, and capable of holding a charge. You do that by having it load tested at any auto store.
2) Since you disconnected the battery cables to have the battery tested, now is a good time to check and clean the cable ends (both ends) and make sure they are shiny bright. Inspect the entire cable, especially where the cable enters the terminal, for bulging of insulation which is a sign of internal corrosion. Replace the cable(s) or cut the ends off and install new ones as required.
3) With the cables clean and tight and a good battery, you can now see if the problem occurs. If it doesn't you are home free. If it still doesn't work or works intermittently, check and clean the remaining cable connections on the solenoid and the starter.
4) If it now works you are good to go. If not, use a short jumper wire to short the small terminal on the solenoid to the large terminal on the solenoid (the one that has the POSITIVE battery cable connected to it). Be prepared for a spark. You are essentially doing the same thing that the ignition key does in the START position. If the engine spins fine every time, you either fixed the problem, or if not, the problem is in the harness between the engine and ignition switch.
5) Disconnect and inspect the large harness plug in the engine compartment. Clean it as best you can and reconnect. Now use the ignition switch to try and start the engine. If it works every time the connector was the culprit. If not, you now need a voltmeter.
6). Put the POS voltmeter lead on the small terminal ont he solenoid. The NEG lead goes to ground. Have someone turn the ignition key to START. If you don't see 12V troubleshoot the harness between the engine and control box. If 12V is present every time, the switch is good.
7) At this point, connect a single jumper cable between the POS batter terminal and directly to the large terminal on the starter. If the starter spins each time you do that, the solenoid is likely the culprit but there is one more test.
8) Connect another jumper cable to the NEG battery terminal and a good ground (bare bolt head or bracket) on the engine. Now do the same test you did in step 7. If the starter now goes ok, you still have a negative battery cable problem or the solenoid is bad. If it still doesn't work right, you have a bad-new starter.

Re: Solenoid ???

Don't ignore the negative cable. Clean all connections shiny bright--don't just look at them.

I am amazed at the number of solenoids that get needlessly replaced. When is the last time you replaced one in your car? Do a voltage check before you run out and buy a solenoid.

Re: Solenoid ???

also have the battery load tested.

Re: Solenoid ???

I am amazed at the number of solenoids that get needlessly replaced.

No doubt. What bugs me is that the problem 'fixed' itself for no apparent reason.

Re: Solenoid ???

if you think about it on the old fords they had a solenoid on the fender mounted they would just click and you could get out slap it with a hammer and it would work again same thing with the starter they will stick thats why you have to check every wire first including looking for any bulges in wires could be corroding from inside out. But do like they said abouve and you will find it.

Re: Solenoid ???

a dirty connection burnt the corrosion off. but will recorrode, and leave you stranded on a rainy windy morning.

Re: Solenoid ???

metriccrescentwrench said:

What bugs me is that the problem 'fixed' itself for no apparent reason.

Click to expand...

If you do not find any other identifiable cause, it could still be the starter, even though it was just rebuilt. It is very possible the brushes were not making good contact on the commutator because the commutator was not cleaned and dressed properly or the brushes were not replaced or just have not seated well. Once the starter moves even the slightest, it can take off and never have another hiccup. If it happens again, though, try manually rotating the starter a 1/4 turn or so then try again. If it starts okay after that, you may want to take the starter back to the rebuilder for a check.

Re: Solenoid ???

Update.

This problem only seems to happen after boat's been sitting a while, which seems to support the theory that there's some corrosion somewhere.

It's now been a week since I had the boat out and lo and behold, when I turned the key I have the problem - solenoid clicks but starter motor doesn't run. I was armed with my voltmeter this time.

Voltage at battery, no current draw: 12.55
voltage at battery, solenoid engaged (starter motor not running): 12.35

Voltage at solenoid input, key off: 12.55
Voltage at solenoid, solenoid engaged (starter motor not running): 12.33

My next move was to clip my voltmeter to the hot post on the starter, unfortunately after I had done that the starter worked.

Voltage at battery while cranking: 9.95
Voltage before solenoid while cranking: 9.65.
Voltage at starter while cranking: 9.02.

So, as with most any intermittent problem this one 'fixed' itself at the most inopportune time. But I don't believe it's a wiring issue between the battery and solenoid, as a 0.3 V drop through 8 ft or so of cable while cranking seems quite reasonable. I'm still leaning towards the problem being the solenoid contacts, as I don't believe I should be seeing over 0.6 V drop across the solenoid. Plus, this seems eerily similar to what I see when industrial contactors are going bad. Anybody got any opinions either for or against?

thanks

Re: Solenoid ???

Sounds like it started at an innopurtune time for you. Next time it acts up, measure the voltage at the starter (+) terminal while somebody turns the key over to "start" - if you get within half a volt or so of the battery voltage, the starter is faulty.

Bad voltage at starter (with clean tight connections), measure the voltage at the solenoid small terminal with the yellow/red wire with the key turned over to "start" you should read within a half-volt of battery voltage, otherwise you have a wiring fault beween the keyswitch & solenoid. Good voltage at solenoid but bad voltage at starter means faulty solenoid.

Testing the Positive Battery Cable to the Engine

Select the DV Volts position on the meter.
Connect the Red (Positive) lead of the meter to the positive battery POST.
Connect the Black (Negative) lead of the meter to the starter solenoid terminal where the positive battery cable is connected.
Using a remote start switch, activate the starter solenoid to spin the engine and observe the reading on the meter. A reading above 0.6V is an indicator of a bad cable or bad connection.
(A) If the meter reads above 0.6V, move the Black lead of the meter to the positive battery cable terminal on the starter solenoid and retest. If the reading drops to below 0.6V, the cable connection is bad.
(B) If the meter still reads above 0.6V, move the Black lead of the meter to the positive battery cable terminal on the battery and retest. If the reading drops to below 0.6V, the cable is bad or undersized.

Service Note: A bad power connection to the ignition or battery charging system can be found by connecting the Black lead of the meter to the power connection of the ignition system or charging system and working your way back to the battery positive post. At no time should you see a reading above 1V.

Testing the Negative Battery Cable to the Engine

Select the DV Volts position on the meter.
Connect the Black (Negative) lead of the meter to the negative battery POST.
Connect the Red (Positive) lead of the meter to the engine block where the negative battery cable is connected.
Using a remote start switch, activate the starter solenoid to spin the engine and observe the reading on the meter. A reading above 0.6V is an indicator of a bad cable or bad connection.
(A) If the meter reads above 0.6V, move the Red lead of the meter to the negative battery cable terminal on the engine block and retest. If the reading drops to below 0.6V, the cable connection is bad.
(B) If the meter still reads above 0.6V, move the Red lead of the meter to the negative battery cable terminal on the battery and retest. If the reading drops to below 0.6V, the cable is bad or undersized.

A bad ground connection to the ignition and battery charging system can be found by connecting the Red lead of the meter to the ground connection of the ignition or battery charging system and working your way back to the battery negative post. At no time should you see a reading above 1V.

Re: Solenoid ???

bgbass.1 said:

Try cleaning all connections and if still does it hook a jumper cable to positive post on starter and other end to batt. if starter spins then change selenoid.

Click to expand...

If the starter is not operating, the above pretty much nails the bad actor as the solenoid, as long as you have already ruled out wiring integrity.

Re: Solenoid ???

metriccrescentwrench said:

Voltage at solenoid input, key off: 12.55
Voltage at solenoid, solenoid engaged (starter motor not running): 12.33

Click to expand...

I'll reiterate - the brushes on the starter are likely the culprit if the cable and connections between the solenoid and starter are good. If you finally decide it is the starter, try disassembling and dress the commutator with some fine emory cloth and make sure the brushes are installed correctly and not worn. Be sure to clean any copper filings from the gaps between the segments of the commutator.

Re: Solenoid ???

But the starter is new!

Re: Solenoid ???

It sure does sound like a faulty wiring issue or connection between the solenoid and starter, but probably a solenoid issue. I would run a heavy jumper wire from the solenoid to starter, and re measure voltage. If the voltage at starter is now within half a volt or so of battery voltage, the wiring or connection is definately at fault. If it still does not improve, Id say that solenoid is acting up, and should be replaced. But dont forget the steps that Silver Tip outlined so well, that harness plug could also be to blame, open it up, spray some wd 40 or electrical contact cleaner in it, and re plug it, adding some diaelectric grease to seal it.

Re: Solenoid ???

Another update, maybe some useful information for someone else someday.

After checking all the wiring, snugging up all connections, etc. and still getting about the same voltage drops everywhere I went ahead and replaced the solenoid. Re-checked the voltage drop across the solenoid while cranking, it went from about 0.6 V with the old solenoid down to 0.04 V with the new solenoid.

Thus, I'm pretty much convinced that it was the solenoid (of course I'll be even more convinced after the boat can sit for a month and then crank right up).