Chimney problems

I've been heating with wood for the last 4 years. (haven't bought fuel oil since 9/04 and still have about 110 gallons. I sweep my chimney every year and inspect it while I'm at it. This year doesn't look good for burning my wood. I really don't want to use the oil since it has more than doubled since I bought it last.

It has a clay tile flue. About 4 tiles down, they are cracked lengthwise and protruding inwards in the flue. I plan to put a stainless liner in, but with the tiles sticking out, it won't allow me.

I'm thinking about using a spud bar and prying out the old tile. I'm just a bit worried that this is going to weaken the exterior brick surrounding the flue. With the tile being out, it will allow me to get the extra clearance needed for the liner and insulation.

I'm half tempted to tear down the brick chimney and put up Metalbestos. It would be an extra headache of removing the old clay liner through the clean out door in the bottom of the chimney. It is only about a 10"x10" door. My wife likes the looks of the brick chimney and says she wouldn't like the looks of the metalbestos ones. I tend to agree with her, but I really need to act on this matter soon. Money is very limited now and I didn't need this to happen.

Any ideas or thoughts would be appreaciated....Thanks......SS

Re: Chimney problems

Take this with a grain of salt:

I (Like you) like the idea of a stainless chimney... but, if you say it won't fit... it won't fit.

Up here, we have a guy that basically blows up a liner, then pours a 'concrete' substance around it. It's been working great for people that he's done it for. I'm not familiar with the product, just through hear-say.

That said, I have 2 chimneys in my house, 1 in my garage, and one in my shop. (I like to cut wood ) All of them are either triple lined stainless (Air-jet -- which I would highly NOT RECOMMEND), or a double walled stainless with insulation two stainless jackets, made in Canada. I would rip out anything else, and put in my double walled chimney any day of the week.

The triple wall uses the power of convection to cool the chimney. The cooling feature of convection works great.... too great. It stays a little too cool, thus building up creosote. Not a problem if you don't mind cleaning your chimney every now and then. Like 3 or 4 weeks.

The double wall stays warmer (inside and outside both) and doesn't build near the soot. I clean my double wall once a year. And when I do, it's usually 2 inches or so in the bottom of a coffee can.

And, I burn a LOT of well-seasoned wood.

Re: Chimney problems

Take this with a grain of salt:

I (Like you) like the idea of a stainless chimney... but, if you say it won't fit... it won't fit.

Up here, we have a guy that basically blows up a liner, then pours a 'concrete' substance around it. It's been working great for people that he's done it for. I'm not familiar with the product, just through hear-say.

That said, I have 2 chimneys in my house, 1 in my garage, and one in my shop. (I like to cut wood ) All of them are either triple lined stainless (Air-jet -- which I would highly NOT RECOMMEND), or a double walled stainless with insulation two stainless jackets, made in Canada. I would rip out anything else, and put in my double walled chimney any day of the week.

The triple wall uses the power of convection to cool the chimney. The cooling feature of convection works great.... too great. It stays a little too cool, thus building up creosote. Not a problem if you don't mind cleaning your chimney every now and then. Like 3 or 4 weeks.

The double wall stays warmer (inside and outside both) and doesn't build near the soot. I clean my double wall once a year. And when I do, it's usually 2 inches or so in the bottom of a coffee can.

And, I burn a LOT of well-seasoned wood.

Re: Chimney problems

So, I burn a lot of wood, but I (apparently) am still not overly bright... or patient.

Sorry for the double post.:redface:

Re: Chimney problems

The stainless liner needs to be sized for the size of the stove. I have been burning a Kent Insert for years and have a 6" stainless liner inside the tercota liner, then brick and block on the outside. I wanted to go 8" but they said I had to have the 6" for my stove. It works great but does do some build up the last 2-3 ft at the top. I made the mistake last winer and burned "PINE" whic was free, definatelt a mistake, way too much build up.
I think the poured liner would work ok also, it would be thick enough to hold the heat and a smooth surface for cleaning.

Re: Chimney problems

I get "Old House Journal" in the mail and this month they had a write up about replacing chimneys and they mentioned al of the options. You may be able to access it online or find it at a Walmart or Barnes and Nobles. Good article. If ya find that ya need a subscriber id or something let me know and I'll give ya mine thru a pm.

Re: Chimney problems

Thanks guys. I know about the sizing of the flues to match for the draft. That is part of my problem. My woodburner has an 8" flue. If I put a 6" liner, then I need to get a different woodburner. With downsizing the woodburner, I would also be limiting the amount of output for heat. The existing one will keep the house toasty running it around the clock. It is getting old and had its days, but there is still a few more years left.

One friend of mine suggested that I move the woodburner outside. Build an enclosure around it and install coils for circulating a water/anitfreeze mixture. Then put a coil in above my furnace. This would be similar to the outside wood burners that are on the market. I sorta like this idea as it will prevent the amount of dust and dirt in the house plus reduce the fire hazard risk. Even with this idea, it would get costly plus not knowing if it would really heat the house well enough for the amount of wood used.

My other option is to completely tear down my nice looking brick chimney and replace it with a stainless stack. Something that I feel will ruin the looks of my house.

Another option that is open is to have a rigid liner made of 18 ga stainless in a one piece unit. I can use my bucket truck to drop it in place. The company I work for has a sheetmetal company that does fab work for us. The owner of the company said he would fab everything, but I would need to do the welding. This way I can leave my brick chimney in tact. With this liner, I can have it made to have as little clearance possible so that insulating it will not be neccessary.

After burning nothing but wood last year about 90% of the time, I had very little build up of creosote. I was surprised that I didn't have more, but I paid close attention on what kind of wood was burned in it. I also kept a close eye on it so that I didn't have any flames going into the chimney.

I just may have to bite my tongue and pay the big bucks for the oil this year. I really don't want to cut into my seasonal dock fund to heat my house. I don't think I can handle another year of not boating either. Sure wish this could have waited two years when all our debts would be paid off.

Thanks again for the replys ,,,,,,,, SS

Re: Chimney problems

Mayfloat.

I have similar problems with my chiminey also. My problem is that my chiminey is in the middle of the house so liners have to be the awnser for me. May i ask you what you think the Stainless liner job would cost you ?

turfman

Re: Chimney problems

turfman said:

Mayfloat.

I have similar problems with my chiminey also. My problem is that my chiminey is in the middle of the house so liners have to be the awnser for me. May i ask you what you think the Stainless liner job would cost you ?

turfman

Click to expand...

There is no set kit is what I'm finding out. I suggest google, that is what I've been doing. There is different prices per foot and per item such as elbows, collars, etc. So you need to figure out what pieces parts you need.

It turns out that I have a 7" flue. Thats what I get for eyeballing the size I think I'm going to get stainless single wall and then pour a cement mixture containing vermiulite around it. Its still going to be a pain due to having to get the one tile that is protruding inwards out or back in place.

Re: Chimney problems

The article says that there are two differnt kinds of SS used for liners as one is more appropriate for wood.

Re: Chimney problems

My 6" stainless used for my Kent airtight insert is not inslulated and works great. I don't know where the fireplace shop got the material , but it is a solid one piece stainless pipe w/o any seams.
If you can get a 7/8" in the chimney, I don't think you need to cement it in.

Re: Chimney problems

Hi SS,

I'm a 17 year Certified Chimney sweep here in Massachusetts and I am usually relining 2-3 days out of my work week. I use the single wall flexible stainless steel lining method on 99% of my jobs with and without insulation. The type of stainless steel you would want to use would be a 316ti S.S. The one thing you didnt mention was the size of your existing clay tile? Is it 8X8 or 8X12? It sounds like it is a single flue chimney. With your stove having an 8" outlet, you will need to use an 8" liner so that you do not restrict your draft. If it is an 8X8 clay liner, you will need to remove the old tiles - we use a tool called a "tile remover/breaker" which is a large block of cast iron attached to 5ft skinny steel rods which attach to one another and spin on a drill to crack and break the old tiles out. You may get lucky and be able to open up the crown on top of the chimney enough to use a "tile setter" (Masons use it to set tiles in place) and if the tiles were "dry stacked" in place, or if the mortar in between the tiles is deteriorated enough, you may be able to lift out each tiles one by one to allow enough room for the 8" S.S. liner. If the clay tile is 8X12, you can order the liner custom ovalized to fit inside the clay tiles. Most 8X12 clay tiles are usually 7 1/4" X 11 1/4" ID. Remember you will also need a S.S. 8" tee and tee cover at the bottom of the liner to connect to your smoke pipe of the stove and an 8" top termintation kit to seal off the top of the chimney and 8" S.S. cap to prevent water and animals. I'm not a big fan of vermiculite around liners. The better choice would be a ceramic wool blanket with an armor mesh (to protect the wool when installing). But the ceramic wool adds approx. 1/2 " - 3/4" to the diameter of the liner and you already dont have much room to play with. As long as the stove is burned properly, creosote should not be an issue - especially with a properly sized liner system. The other method used is called a "Cast in place" liner. Thats when a balloon is sent down the chimney and a cement slurry is poured around it. Then the balloon in filled and the cement forms a casting around the balloon. It is then deflated and removed. This method is very effective in older houses where restoration is needed in the interior of the chimney and the wyth walls are very deteriorated. Remember, your dealing with a heating appliance and fire inside your house. If you have any doubts about how to reline or fix the tile issues, it may be worth getting ahold of a certified chimney sweep in your area - at least to do an inspection and give you an idea of what it would cost to reline. It is not a cheap job to hire out. But you have the peace of mind when it is done by a professional. Sorry this was soooo long winded. Hope it helped. Any other ??? please ask!

Re: Chimney problems

Thanks DC, that is some great info and I appreaciate it

I remeasured and the ID of the chimney flue is 7x11. The flue on the woodstove is 7". I did a closer inspection of my stove and its probably in worse shape than I thought. The fire brick is all cracked and broken. I replaced it a couple of years ago. Then the rails were a bit distorted and made it a problem getting them back in. The fire box has some warpage to it as well.

Our plan right now is to get a new woodstove with a 6" flue. This should give me more room for a single liner plus the room to get the "T" in.

I would like to pour cement in around the liner to inulate it and a more positive barrier for burn thru. So your saying that vermiculite is not necessary? So do you think I'm on a better track of installing a new woodstove plus doing the liner as I mentioned? Thanks Again.......SS

Re: Chimney problems

SS, Glad I could help with the info. Replacing the firebrick in the stove would not be a problem, but if the firebox is warped, then it probably is time for a new stove. On the upside, a new stove would be more efficient and have a longer burn time, plus be EPA certified. You can still get a stove that is non-catalytic and be around 70% on efficiency. With a new stove, you would be looking at a 6" flue collar so you could use a 6" S.S. liner. I would use the ceramic wool insulation method of insulating the liner if you are going to insulate. Vermiculite is a PIA to work with and very messy. Also, it has been known to cause health issues if inhaled. You have a 7"X11" clay flue to work with, so you should have enough room to slide the liner with insulation down the existing flue - the trick is keeping the ceramic wool kept tight when wrapping it around the liner and the armor mesh tightly clamped. Also, you should be able to attach the body of the tee onto the bottom of the liner and send that down the flue at the same time - the trick to this is making sure there are no misaligned clay flue tiles inside the chimney right now. Then all you have to do is attach the snout at the breech area. Let me know if you have any other questions...

Re: Chimney problems

DC698,

What's the trick to getting the chimney pipe hooked/mated to the... er.. exhaust, vent, ? .. on the top of a fireplace insert?

Thanks,
-V

Re: Chimney problems

V, Usually the flue collar on the appliance will accept the male end of the smoke pipe that is exhausting the appliance - meaning the crimped end at the bottom of the flue run should enter the flue collar of the heating appliance. Hooking up an insert at the bottom of a flue connection that is coming down through the throat of a fireplace can be somewhat difficult and aggrevating. Usually, when I install a fireplace woodstove insert, I always run a 6" stainless liner from the top of the chimney to the bottom for proper venting and have to notch out the fireplace damper frame to allow for proper clearance for the 6" liner to connect to the top of the insert. Some installers will crush or ovalize the liner going through the throat of the damper, then de-ovalize it to fit into the stove outlet. I dont like to do that method, as it can create a draft restriction. An adapter, and sometimes, a stainless elbow is then used to transfer the flex liner over to rigid pipe to allow for proper hookup into the stove outlet. Let me know if this helps V.