does this make sense?

so i took my 73 85hp rude to the shop. it wont stay running under load or idle. i thought carbs right? tried to flush with seafoam and the motor ran for a second and died, then wouldn't start again. the mechanic said the power pack had been replaced and a bunch of other things were "newer". he said he would run it today and that it probably wouldn't need a carb rebuild since the electric choke was gummed up that may be the problem.

he called today and said that he tried to run the motor and it had no spark with the plugs in , but it did have a spark with the plugs out. apparently when they upgraded the power pack they didn't install a "timing sensor" to match the new vinyl coated pack since the old one was in an aluminum case it wasn't set right. he said he sees it a lot on older motors. he also said he wants to check a electric choke switch or something that is on top of the cylinders under the flywheel as it may not be functioning and cause the choke to stick open.

i really don't know much about boats so maybe you guys could let me know if this sounds legit.

thanks, Rich.

Re: does this make sense?

well its nice to know you guys are listening....

Re: does this make sense?

I can not help due to ignorance on the subject, but if you give it a little time someone will answer, these guys are very helpful. Probubly real busy this time of year.
I have a 1973 65 horse and the guys here have helped alot, good luck

Re: does this make sense?

Honestly, its tough to tell whether it makes sense or not due to some missing information.

It makes sense that plugs could fire under no load (open air) and not fire under load (compression and fuel). What I can't tell from the information given is if your mechanic tested this or not.

1) How did he determine they fired while in (inductive timing light?)
2) What method de he use to determine spark w/ plugs out (spark tester, grounded plugs ?)

I'm not aware that the timer base has to be matched to the power packs either. Seems they'd be a direct replacement.

Re: does this make sense?

I'm not an expert either, but on some motors the starter has to spin them with enough revolutions to get them to spark. If the plugs are out it will spin faster with a low battery. Did it run fine and then start this problem? If it did I would not put much credence in his theory. It would be hard to believe it would run at all if they put the wrong part in and that seems to be what he is saying.

Re: does this make sense?

The way im understanding you is that while running there were spark issues, but when performing a spark test with an inline spark tester it jumped the gap fine. After your decarb, did you replace your plugs? This is a must in most cases. Repace them and try the spark test yourself, it is cheap and easy, and let us know the results. The tester can be bought for about 10 bucks at most parts stores, or you could make one yourself. The spark should jump a good 7/16 of an inch with a strong blue ZAP!! Also ensure that the battery is fully charged like stated, 12.65. Let us know what you find.

Re: does this make sense?

he said he tested for spark with the plugs out and it had a nice bright spark. he also said he had an old timing light that was given to him that he used to test spark with the plugs in and that is how he determined the timing sensor needed to be replaced.

the boat ran fine, perfectly fine before i stopped using it. other than the day i tried to take it out and it died under load or at regular idle. the boat has not been used since Dec 05.

i did try to decarb with seafoam. the boat started and ran for about 5 seconds, sputtered then died. after that i couldn't get it started again. thats when i took it to the shop. this guy WAS recommended by a few guys on another board, but i am just naturally skeptical of ALL mechanics especially when they say i have a problem that sounds a little too complicated.

he also refused to install the sierra impeller kit and carb kit i bought. said they were junk.

Re: does this make sense?

If it has been sitting for 2 years, just flushing the carbs with seafoam will not clean them out... I would strip them down and clean them the proper way.

that doesn't explain your spark problem though, cant help there.

Re: does this make sense?

Is the battery spinning the engine fast enough? Plugs' out with spark, sensor gap out of spec. Use Rapair sensor gap tool to put back in spec. Not uncommon on this Ign. system.

Re: does this make sense?

As mentined a couple of times, the starter has to spin the engine a certain minimum RPM or it won't have spark. It spins faster with the plugs out. Check battery, cables, etc. etc.

Re: does this make sense?

If that's the case could you not rope start it?

Re: does this make sense?

"Plugs' out with spark, sensor gap out of spec."

ya he said the part he was replacing or fixing, the space wasn't set correctly. he said the gap has to be just right or it wont work.

so it sounds like he is on the level, just wanted to be sure.

thanks again guys and I'll keep you posted as i get info.

Rich.

Re: does this make sense?

That sensor can be adjusted, I did an early post on how to do this.

Re: does this make sense?

Sorry for the delay guys.

Got the boat back three Saturdays ago. took her out the following Sunday and ran her. man it was nice! she ran great. almost as good as new (have to burn off the gas with seafoam in it now as i am not going to waste 18 gallons plus the pistons and cylinders need a de-carb badly!). she fired up on the second crank and shot right up to high RPM on the warm up. ran her slow for a bit then ran her fast. it was great.

took her out the other day and she had a little trouble starting, but i think it was due to the lower battery amperes and sea foamed gas. once i got her started man did she smoke. ran at low idle for about ten minutes then slowly crept up to high rpm and when she did the smoke got thicker. then lowered her down to idle and the smoke all but disappeared and she ran good, little sluggish but good. almost done with that tank.

okay so are you ready for the list and the cost?

1-timing sensor base adjust and lube
2-thermostat check and service
3-dual carb rebuild
4-water pump rebuild with new housing (this irks me because he refused to use the sierra kit i bought, then charged me 54 bucks for an omc kit and there was nothing wrong with the impeller that he took out. no wear and not even bent! )
5-spark plugs
6-and all the other oils and lubes to finish the job

$920.86

but at least its cheaper than 12,500 for a new motor!

now i just have to fix the list to port. when asked about it he said, "raise the motor, usually a list means you have too much lower end in the water. and change your prop to a 13x17, you'll get better top end speed and improve overall performance."

Rich.

Re: does this make sense?

sehoner said:

okay so are you ready for the list and the cost?

1-timing sensor base adjust and lube
2-thermostat check and service
3-dual carb rebuild
4-water pump rebuild with new housing (this irks me because he refused to use the sierra kit i bought, then charged me 54 bucks for an omc kit and there was nothing wrong with the impeller that he took out. no wear and not even bent! )
5-spark plugs
6-and all the other oils and lubes to finish the job
$920.86
but at least its cheaper than 12,500 for a new motor!Rich.

Click to expand...

Good Grief man!!! You have got to be kidding. How much per hour was this guy charging for the labor? Did he charge you for storage? I only paid $450 for the 1978 model 85HP evinrude I have and after cleaning the carbs (that I did myself), fuel pump rebuild kit, and a few fuel line replacements (all done by me). I got her running, I still got to change the water pump impeller I have on hand. I better keep my mouth shut (so to speak) I'm liable to go out and not be able to start it now , it's been a couple of months since I had it running. Can't turn back time but sounds like you should of stuck with the guys here on Iboats and let them help you through it.

You could of bought 2 motors similar to what I have for the repair bill you paid. He ripped you a good one.

Re: does this make sense?

Bringing parts to a mechanic and asking them to install them is a little out of line in two ways (except unless he asked you to bring them): 1) It prevents them from making a profit on the parts they sell and 2) it puts them in a no-win situation in that if the engine still runs poorly it's his fault whether or not those parts were the issue in the first place and it also creates a warranty situation. After all, you can't expect the technician to absorb his labor cost to replace a defective part that you brought to him.

When the engine failed to run, did you at least pull the plugs to see what they looked like? They may have just been fouled from the decarb operation. Since the engine had not been run in a couple years were you using old gas, contaminated with water perhaps which is why it quit in the first place? Too many unanswered questions here.

Re: does this make sense?

"Can't turn back time but sounds like you should of stuck with the guys here on Iboats and let them help you through it.
"

Ya wildmaninal I know, but as i live in an apartment and the boat is graciously trailered at my father in laws house i had no where to work on the boat. so whadya gonna do?
The labor was around 45 an hour. basing this off the "no work done minumum charge estimate".

silver,
after the motor ceased to fire i pulled the plugs and they looked fine. had no way to do a park check or a compression check for the reason stated above.
no old gas, brand new full tank. I hve to admit i know very little about serious outboard work and opted to pay someone who "knew what they were doing" it cost me a pretty penny, but the boat runs great and if you think of it in a capitalizing way:
i have never had any work done on the boat in the last four years so 920.86/4=230.21. not bad in my opinion to keep a 33 year old motor running strong.

will i ever go back to this guy? prally not, but hey who knows.

and btw silver, i expect a mech to use any parts i bring him. i dont expect him to warranty the parts, but i do expect a warranty on the labor. it leaves a bad taste in my mouth when a mech says they wont use the parts i bought and then charges me almost 30% more for one of their parts. that just removes the option for repeat business.

Rich.