85hp Ok I give up.....................................

84force

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
30
The plot thickens.....I have been battling a performance problem with this engine for 3 years now. I thought I had found the problem last week when I removed the cylinder head and had it checked only to find it was warped. I was real excited to try it out today after getting the head back on. Much to my surprise the engine performs just as it did before. No change, same old thing, only 3400rpm, only 28mph. I am ready to give up. Am I getting all the performance that I am going to get out of this engine? Should I be happy with what I've got? I still think there should be more. What do you guys think? The only thing I have not reset is the timing. The engine idles fine, performs ok except for lack of rpm & mph. Do you guys think timing could be off far enough to cause these problems I am dealing with and still idle and perform this way. Should I to settle for what I've got? Help..............
 

MWBROWN

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
231
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

Have you checked to make sure you throtle is moving/opening the carbs all the way. You can check that with the engine off. Move the control all the way forward and the throtle plates should be almost, if not, horizontal.
I had to make a small adjustment on mine. There is an adjustment on the drivers side of the engine that is pretty easy to figure out.
That could explain why you had the same rpm with different props.

Have you gotten a manual yet?

Another thing are the plugs. Are they the correct ones. Frank A. helped a guy the other day that had the wrong plugs.

Last, but not least, follow Frank A's tips on the timming.

I hope this helps you.

Mike
 

Kajun37

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
348
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

what size boat do you have it on? correct prop? compression? is your boats foam waterlogged?
 

roscoe

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
21,667
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

checked compression ?
load (weight)
prop size
have you verified the tach is accurate?
Correct tach for a 20 pole Force engine?
 

steelespike

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

Have you checked that it is running on all cylinders?Did you do a compression check with the new head gasket?
Are you sure all carbs are working correctly?
How do the plugs look?
You could try CAREFULLY squirting fuel mix into each carb at speed and note the reaction.
 

84force

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
30
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

Thanks,
Here goes. The boat is an 84 Bayliner Model 1710 Fish and Ski. I have used a spark tester to check all cylinders for fire and all are firing. I did not do a compression test after the new head gasket. I guess I was in two much of a hurry to get to the lake. I will do that next. I have had all the carbs apart and adjusted floats, checked jets, checked opening of throttle plates, adjusted idle vent screws,etc. Plugs are correct for engine look ok, they do get a brown coloration when operating. I have tried two different props a 21 and a 17, same result as I indicated before. The tach is for a force outboard and the selector switch is set for a 20 pole engine. As far a I can tell the foam is not waterlogged. Could someone tell me a simple to test for this. It trailers ok and does not seem to sit to low in the water. After being on the water there is not any excess water coming out of the drain unless we are swimming or tubing and then it is not very much. I do have a clymer's manual. Next I am going to attempt to set the timing. If you have any suggestions please let me know.
 

MWBROWN

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Messages
231
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

I have a 1984 1510 Fish and Ski and I get 38 mph (gps) at about 5400 rpm with 20 pitch.
When I put on my 15 pitch it goes 34 mph (gps) at about 6500 rpm.

I cannot understand why you get the same rpm with either one of your props.
The rpm should be quite higher with the lower pitch prop.

Are the speeds you give by GPS or the speedo? My speedo is off about 4 MPH. So, I guess if I get 38 on my 1510 you would get a bit less with a 2 ft longer boat.

Just some thoughts.

Mike
 

84force

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
30
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

The mph figures I made reference to are from a handheld gps. I also do not understand the rpm's not changing with different props. i am dazed and confused. Any more thoughts would be wonderful. I am at my witts end.
 

Frank Acampora

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
12,004
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

Ok! You got me curious so I ran some theoretical nimbers to see if your tach was reading correctly. So: And remember, this is all theoretical, not actual:

If you have a 2 to 1 gearcase in your 85, then at 3800 rpm with a 19 pitch prop, you should get somewhere near 31.7 MPH. With a 17 pitch prop, you should get around 27.5 MPH.
If you have the 1.78 to 1 gearcase, these numbers should be respectively34.6 and 30.0 MPH.
With the 2 to 1 gearcase, at 5500 rpm you would expect around 45 MPH.

I arrived at these numbers by taking engine rpm and dividing by gearcase ratio. Multiply by pitch to get inches per minute and factor in about 10% prop slip which the prop forum guys seem to think is average or reasonable. Convert the inches per minute to miles per hour (easy way, 60 mph is 88 feet per second)

Ok! having arrived at these numbers, neither your speed or your tach reading would seem to be greatly out of line since you claimed 28MPH at 3800 RPM.

So therefore, we must assume--oops there's that word again-- that there really is something wrong with your engine.

Now we have apparently covered the more likely things so I'm going to throw out a few of the less likely things.

1st. Check the carb linkage tie bar. that is the flat aluminum bar on the side of the carbs that links all three together. the three pieces of this bar are held together with thin metal clips and sheet metal screws. If these screws work loose -and it doesn't need to be much-- you could have 1 or 2 carbs not opening fully with the bottom carb. Replace the sheet metal screws and clips with two small bolts and nuts. Tighten them well with all three carbs closed and the cam not touching the lower throttle roller.
2nd. Take off all three carbs and using a pencil flashlight look in the holes and see if you have any broken reeds. These engines will start and run with several broken reeds. they will even idle, but when asked for full power, too much gas blows back through the missing reed(s).
3rd. Has the engine ever been taken apart? Check the 4 bolts holding the front plate to the block at the center cylinder. 2 are above and 2 are below; one of them usually holds the lower starter bracket also. They have 9/16 inch heads. These are 4 of the 8 main bolts that hold the crankcase halves together. If they come loose--and again, it doesn't need to be much--they will allow the case to flex while running and gas to bleed between cylinders. Enough that the engine will only put out about half or less of it's rated power. They should be torqued to 270 INCH pounds. If they are really loose, you can tighten them and probably get good results, but the best thing to do is to break down the engine, clean the flanges and re-assemble with new sealer.
4. Check for air leaks and bad gaskets around the bypass port covers, the puddle drain system (The flat plate with black hoses behind the linkage tower) The gaskets sealing the manifold to the block and sealing the reed blocks to the manifold. Check for broken hoses in the drain system and the fuel pump (one short thick hose from the block to the pump). And just for the hell of it, check that the fuel pump pressure hose is not clogged, leaving the pump to function on only one stage. While you are at it, replace the diaphragm. These engines will also function with only one stage of the fuel pump working, but again, not at full rated HP.

Now, when you had the head off, you would have seen scored cylinders so we can eliminate that, However, worn pistons that don't seal properly at the lower end will reduce pumping efficiency and of course, if you don't pump the gas from the crankase to the upper cylinder, the engine can't make horsepower. It's the same effect as if you had a smaller engine.

At this stage though, if you have done linkage and carb syncronizing and timing I suspect you either have massive air leaks or one or more broken reeds.
 

steelespike

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Messages
19,069
Re: 85hp Ok I give up.....................................

I've seen lots of folks say their carbs are up to par and go back with a very careful check of all jets and passages with compressed air and soaking and get better results.If you try the careful squirt of fuel into the carbs you should be able to be sure things are right with them.Have you checked jet size; standard is .072.probably good to about 1,500 ft.
 
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