How Important is better MPG?

After visiting eight different boat builder this week, we all differed on the importance of fuel economy from the consumers point of view in relationship to other performance characteristics. I thought that one of the best places to ask the question was right here on iboats. How the boat is built and rigged (engine options etc) is a matter what the builders think you want.

Please note: I will not answer questions or post product suggestions or opinions on this thread.

This question is for all members, and your opinions are valueable and appreciated very much. Please rank the following in order of most important to you:

a) Performance - Better Hole Shot
b) Less bow rise at slow speeds (under 20 MPH)
c) 15% to 20% better MPG
d) More Top Speed (how much?)
e) Better handling and ride (ie; no porpoising)

Please keep it brief!

Re: How Important is better MPG?

A/ a better hole shot when skiing would be great, and reduce mph to get on step. B/ with the increase in no wake / slow speed zones, this is going to become a necessity. C/ the cost of fuel has already cut into my fishing money (fixed income). D/ i personally see no need for anything over 45 mph. 99 % of us are not running drugs, or are and emergency vehicle. if the fishing tourneys put a mph restriction on the boats, it would still be a level playing field. E/ always better handling is appreciated.

i believe out of the list my top pick would be less bow rise seconded by MPG.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

You left out user friendliness, which is my top priority on engines. Quick, quiet starts, quiet idle, smooth performance, no (or little) smoke and stink.

Rigging, prop selection and trim are in control of the rest.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

JB, agree 100%. and don't put so much stuff (bling) into the floor plan, you can walk thru it.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

b. I hate it when a boat stands on it's butt. a. sort af automatically goes with b.
e. I once had a boat that vibrated me right out of my socks in a 6" chop. Hated that one too.
c. is important on higher horsepowers, over say 50. But I'm content with my 35 where it isn't even a factor.
d. relates to what you want in a boat. My 35 on my 14' is plenty quick for me. Big boats with huge motors don't excite me at all. WAY to rough on the pocketbook. (I'm retired)

Re: How Important is better MPG?

i'd say power/hole shot, economy, and handling are in the minds of the average boat buyer. then you get into more specialty applications like go-fasts, bass boats, cabin cruisers, pontoon boats, etc.

i think the market is too big to really boil it down that simple. go-fasts don't care too much about economy, bass boaters won't care all that much about slow speed handling, pontoon boats and hole shot don't go together, etc. these are each a small segment of the market.

can you better define the consumer we're targeting?

Re: How Important is better MPG?

E. to me is the most important if you have an ill hanlding boat, so it is hard to rank these without knowing how the boat handled before.

Also, people always talk about fuel economy, but when it comes down to it you're only talking about another $10 a weekend . . . Not that big of a deal when you add in all the other things you spend money on to boat. Also, John, I have a big problem with 15% - 20%. Maybe at a couple of fixed points, definitely just after plane vs. without the tabs, but nobody spends all of their time at that speed, so I think it is misleading. I know you didn't wan't to debate this here, but I'd sure like to see before and after fuel numbers over the entire operating range . . .

Everybody wants more speed, but I particularly like the low planing speeds with tabs, and that's not really on your list . . .

Re: How Important is better MPG?

QC:
I chose the 15% to 20% average improvement for MPG because anything less would not be a factor in this question. It is not tied to any product or design. I do not want to talk about the source for these improvements. That was not my intention.

The OEM builders are constantly trying to make the boats serve the customer better, and their direction should be guided by the consumer.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

john, but if the OEM builders finally get it right, won't that hurt your business in the long run.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

If there was only one boat to choose from, then each of these characteristics would have some value to the builder. The reason you got eight different responses to the questions is obvious -- these characteristics mean different things to different categories of boaters.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

1: Storage for all the Gear, Life Jackets, Tool Box and parts, Anchors and lines, Extra poles, First aid kit, Flares ect.

2: Dry Ride and enough dead rise to run in 8 foot swells.

3: 4 cycle EFI or MPI Engine and quiet 4 cycle kicker.

4: Light weight for towing and so will stay on plane at slow speed in rough water.

E: Better Handling and ride.

C: Fuel Mileage

D: Want to cruse at 30 under 3200 RPMS.

B: Bow rise not important becaues I always install Helm controlled TRIM TABS to do that job.

A: Hole shot not important to me, if it takes 2 sec or 8 sec no matter, But needs to plane under 2000 RPMS.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

While I am not at money is no object stage of my life I can spend a lot on fuel.

But at some point the expense of a days boating exceeds the pleasure I get from it. I did a 90 mile run out to Montauk Point for my last trip in 2006 and used about 20 gallons of fuel

If I was in a bigger boat that used 80 gallons of fuel I would really not have enjoyed the trip at that cost despite being to easily be able to pay for it


Tommays

Re: How Important is better MPG?

tashadaddy;

The questions are not directed at how it may or may not effect our business, it is an attempt to determine which direction the OEMs should be moving with regard to boat designs.

From and industry standpoint many manufacturers are reporting lower sales (typically in the 20%) range. This has occurred at the same time gas prices have gone up. There are also reports of a rise in used boats for sale. This will also affect new boat sales.

Gas prices went up from $2.00 to $3.00 per gallon, a 33% increase. In Europe gas is $6.00 per gallon and up. They use smaller motors on their boats than is typical in the US, and have smaller boats in general.
Additionally their boats are lighter, meaning less on board equipment. All of this is targeted at reducing fuel consumption.

What concerns me, for the industry, is that the rising fuel costs will reduce boating time, and eventually lead to eliminating boating from the family recreation activities.

Frankly, what I would like to know is how the fuel prices have impacted the use of your boating activities.
Should manufactures begin to think differently about what "you" want?

Re: How Important is better MPG?

I know fuel prices were hard on me last year. By the time i fuel the boat and the truck to tow it to the lake was about 150 bucks.That made me do less cruising and tubing to try to make a full tank last 2 outings on the water.
As gas prices will probably increase more by this boating season i think more people will decide not to buy new boats unless they can really push the "better fuel economy boat"..
I think a lighter more fuel economy boats would be the better seller in the future.
Yes,everyone wants a good handling,faster,quicker planing boat also.Then there are a few that fuel prices and boating cost is no object.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

Remember the $75 Luxery Tax on expensive boats? Yacht sales went into a nose dive, even though one would think that $75 would be peanuts to somebody that can afford a yacht. But people flat refused to pay the tax. Hatteras even offered to pay the tax themselves and still couldn't sell boats. We were suppliers of the steering and engine controls for Hatteras, and we went through some tough times because of our lack of sales, not just to Hatteras, but Bertram and a bunch of others too.

Just to say that people can be funny and unpredictable. Will there be a point somewhere that we refuse to pay for gas? What is our limit? $3.00? $4.00?

Re: How Important is better MPG?

I think it's higher interest rates on home loans myself. I believe a lot of the boat purchases a few years back were fueled by refinancing of existing homes or the feeling of wealth caused by home price increases. That's my belief.

I don't think any of the factors you list above cause people to buy, they are factors in satisfaction after they buy. Way different issue from my perspective. New boaters don't go to the boat show saying "If somebody promises me 4MPG instead of the standard 3MPG, I'm buying." I also don't think they say "If he says I'll plane flat at 18.5 MPH, I'm buying." I guess if there are 20% fewer customers, and one builder wants to maintain his unit sales, he would stand to attract more of those reduced buyers if he offered all of those features AND somebody actually knew about it . . .

I have helped a few guys buy new boats. The discussion is ALWAYS about top speed, they always believe the salesman who says it'll go 60, they hate hearing from me that'll barely go 50 . . . It's never about fuel, definitely not about handling. I have to remind them about deadrise and power packages etc. Most dissatisfied boaters I talk to aren't happy with top speed, and they're not happy with the ride. That's why I focus on deadrise and power . . . They already know about seating arrangements etc. They all think they want a sink, and their wives want a head. They ask a lot about quality and they are terrified of breakdowns and maintenance. I guess most of this applies only to new boaters, but experienced boaters know what they want . . .

If there was a boat that offered all of the features above vs. one that didn't and all others things were equal, then of course I'd go for the boat with the great handling, efficiency, hole shot etc.

On the fuel thing, before I bought my first boat I talked to a friend who was a marine power salesman. He also has boated his entire life. I mentioned fuel economy as a part of my criteria, and his answer has stuck with me for 25 years. He said, "you're talking about $5 a weekend . . ." Now I say $10 or $20, but it is not significant when you get down to all else we spend cash on for a trip . . .

Re: How Important is better MPG?

I would wonder what kind of real money saving fuel efficiencies could be achieved. Personally, given each individual boat, I don't thing that there would be anything you could do to provide meaningful improvements.

Case in Point. I just repowered my 20 ft Gulfstream with a higher output 302/5.0 liter. This included a 4bbl carb. I went to Lake Shasta this summer where gas was $6.00 a gallon. Until I learned to stay out the the secondaries, my boat just swilled gas. Once I learned not to experience the joys of massive power accerlerations, my fuel use dropped down into the range of the old days (pre 4bbl and pre Smart tabs)

In short, I find it hard to believe that you would be able to claim any appreciable mileage improvements with the use of Smart Tabs.

When it comes to verifiable claims for performance improvements, the sky is the limit.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

1.c
2.d
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actually all of the above and a moddable engine with cheap part availbity.........8)

Probably a little off the beaten path here John, but you might want to convey to them it's time to get the tech off the shelf and get it into production, We the boating consumer's are being handed 70's and 80's tech for 2000 prices.

I have been in the auto ind for all of my life, The motor tech is almost stone age and the price's we pay are for state of the art, cast blocks, heads, manifolds. for the luv of god the cast iron duke with a carb?

There is so many good design's with aluminum block's, syntheic manifolds and the new cvt tranny's? why dont we have them.

To give the argument that we are at the mercy of (Ford-Gm) mfg's is weak as kool-aid, and the CEO's or CFO' should be booted out the door and a permanent tag placed on there resume's as PC kid ( totally incapable)

Ok enough of that, now to you, i have never seen such a dedicated or driven person such as you driving his product, with tech advise, support, and getting a feel for what is going on in his or her market place, Kudo's john, a job well done.

As to the rest in the ind, truly if you dont wake up and be held accountalbe, to hell with ya, your facing a big market correction and you better damm well get your heart in the game and if ya dont have one get out.

A little history lesson, Ford motor co, they were untouchable in the early 90's, they had more money than they even knew what to do with. Ohhh and along cane Jack Nassar the efficency mgr, the money man, THE MAN WHO MAY HAVE DESTRYOED FORD.

:devil: Ok i feel a bit better now, a rant yes, the truth no question, Joey Six Pack has left the building, so now what............ Joey is far more educated than they ever before are you ready to meet the challenge OEM boy's.

Just a Opinion your milage may vary.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

As the owner of a 17 foot walleye boat powered by a 75 HP two stroke, fuel costs for me is a "non-issue". As I look at the very large cruisers, I "wonder" about their fuel costs, but then if one can afford the boat in the first place fuel cost should not be an issue in that case either. However, if fuel cost to operate the boat you own is a killer issue, you should probably not own that boat. Where fuel costs does enter the picture on a wider scale -- and not just in boating -- is in towing your boat (or camper/travel trailer/snowmobiles/whatever) to the place where they will be used. When gas became $3.00+ you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why all those big Dodge, Ford, and Chevy pickups, campers, and motor homes had for sale signs in them.
John -- the economy will always drive the recreation industry. People are creative and will find ways to enjoy their sport. It may be by making shorter trips, or perhaps fewer of them. I used to own three snowmobiles but sold them when I could no longer jump on them in my yard and hit the trails. Rather than load them up and drive to a trail head I decided it was getting to be just too much of a bother. Likewise, my travel trailer has been replaced by a cabin. I just can't see anyone with a 35+ foot Carver trading down to a 24 foot "whatever" to save a few bucks on gas. They will do one of three things: 1) use the boat less, 2) make shorter trips, or 3) sell it. I'm old enough to remember 19 cent/gallon gas. In 1960 all of the automakers came out with small cars and were amazed that the little buggers didn't sell. Again, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that why should squeeze my lard butt into a cracker box that gets 22 - 23 MPG (maybe) when my land yacht would get 18 - 19. Finally the outboard manufacturers need to control their costs better. Most higher horsepower engines today are in the price range of many mid-size automobiles.

Re: How Important is better MPG?

As said earlier, it all depends on the individual. Being an on-shore / offshore guy, ride and performance are number one and two.

a) Better handling and ride - cuts down on trips to the chiropractor’s office

b) Performance - Lots of usable torque. Good HP to weight ratio. With adequate HP a good hole shot is no an issue.

c) 15% to 20% better MPG - Decreased fuel consumption would be nice but it falls down the list. If you have to pay for a better ride and performance so be it. You have to pay to play.

d) More Top Speed - Can count the number of days I can run WOT on one hand

e) Less bow rise at slow speeds (under 20 MPH) - Not really on the radar. Installed tabs to help out at cruise speed (25-30 mph)