Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Hi folks,<br /><br />The boating season started here yesterday, and with it came the first run with a new prop, i.e. a Vengeance 3 blade stainless steel 23 pitch.<br /><br />However, I was a bit dismayed to find it performs almost exactly like the 23P Black Max 3 blade alu prop did.<br /><br />With both, I get the same RPM (4300), the same top end speed (34 knots=39 mph), about the same planing speed (approx. 15-16 knots), and about the same overall "feel".<br /><br />Are these two props really that similar? If so, one might as well stick with the alu prop and save some money.<br /><br />Background info: 21 foot Ibiza daycruiser, approx. 1600 kg. total weight with load. 120 hp Mercury turbodiesel, 4500 max rpm, 2:1 gear ratio, Alpha drive, tried Smart Tabs before, replacing these now with QL interceptor tabs.<br /><br />I've tried a bunch of props before. These props compare as follows:<br /><br /> link <br /><br /><br />Walleyehed - what do you think - 22P Enertia next or will that bump RPMs too high? Any idea when to expect a 24P Enertia?<br /><br />Thanks.

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

I have an 18p Vengeance prop (Which still isn't the right pitch for my setup). But Comparing it to a 19p Black Max prop, It is noticable that the Vengeance prop has ALOT more bite.<br /><br />With the 19P black max prop, I could only trip to Level (1/4 Trim on my guage, Engine level), any more it would blow out.<br /><br />With the 18p Vengeance Prop, I can trim all the way up the 3/4 trim, which is max trim while underway on my motor, and it still doesn't blow out. In fact with it trimmed that far up it wont even steer!<br /><br />I also notice more grip in that it seams more responsive when I raise or lower the throttle, but that may be just the pitch change!?<br /><br />-TheChad

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

stevens, you have found the purpose of the SS Vengeance...it's the first step up from aluminum.<br />The difference between the 2 you mention is intended to be durability as an entry-level SS prop. I am surprized however, that you had no speed gain...I would have expected 1-1.5 gain on that.<br />Enertia are coming off the line as we speak...odd pitch first, then evens.<br />The first run of 19's should be done by tomorrow, so maybe next week I can tell ya atleast what we're looking at in that pitch range at that time. Sounds like I'll get to run a few others so we'll have some excellent data on them.

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Hey Kenny, is the Enertia the thing you couldn't mention when you did your prop comparisons which now appears at the top of the props section......that blew everything else away?<br /><br />If so, what makes them great? Can you talk about it now?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Mark

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

No, the prop that pretty much walked away from all others is a Turbo, and I have not been given permission to say what that prop is...<br />I wish I could, but I have to keep my end of the deal...<br />The Enertia may change that...we'll see.

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

It looks like the Enertia is only available in a 14-5/8 Diameter, atleast right now, so that puts it out of options for me.<br /><br />My engine is in the 13" Diameter class.<br /><br />I am almost wondering of a 4 blade prop is going to be what I need to get the holeshot out of the 4-stroke. The question is, can i get a 4-blade that will give me the holeshot, get me to 6000RPM with 4-people onboard, and maintain no less than 40MPH with 4-people...<br /><br />-TheChad

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Chad, you're flat-out gonna lose speed with a 4-bld unless you install a jackplate to utilize the extra blade on the top end.....great hole-shot props, but don't look for anymore speed (infact less) with a std transom mount.

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

How many people install a Jack Plate to a Deep Vee Fish & Ski Aluminum Boat?<br /><br />-TheChad

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

My thoughts exactly. So I guess you need to rethink the 4 blade conversion. I never ran one so I can't help there, other than mention that in reading (I think on Merc www) that the more blades, the less efficiency which translates to lower speed for a given setup.....course as mentioned, hole shot should improve.<br /><br />But what helped my hole shot, on my last rig was a ventilated prop. I don't remember the name of it; came from my Merc dealer with the I6 115, but it was SS, ported, with 3 blades. <br /><br />When you slam the throttle the engine revved up (cavitating deliberately from air introduced by the port,to get the rpm's up, which gets the available hp up) and in no time I was on plane (same with popping up a skiier). <br /><br />After the speed built up the hole closed (via water pressure of the slipstream), the rpm's dropped to normal and away I went....engine sounded like it was downshifting, like a car going into overdrive....course it was the prop biting clean water and loading the engine.<br /><br />You might consider that. You can have your cake and eat it too.<br /><br />Mark

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

I tested a 17P Aluminum prop today, with 4 people behind the windshield, and we went on plane in about 8-10 seconds. We went 42MPH, at 5400-5500RPM.<br /><br />With 2 people we went on plane in about 5-7 seconds, and went 45MPH, at 5500-5600RPM.<br /><br />I am worried If I drop another pitch to a 16P, that I will start loosing Top Speed. I do not want to drop below 40MPH.<br /><br />I haven't had the opertunity to tow a tube/skier yet.<br /><br />I'm not sure what I should do next, or if I should just leave it with thease results..<br /><br />-TheChad

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

It seems you may gain a bit of RPM still without hurting anything, with either load on board. Could you perhaps borrow a 16P 3 blade Stiletto or Turbo somewhere to try out?

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Chad,<br />My Buddy bought a New 17'crestliner last year with the 115 merc 4-stroke with a black max 19 pitch that got about 5200 RPM and was a slug out of the hole.<br />The first thing He did was get a veangence 16 pitch. That brought the RPM up to around 5700 at WOT. Guess what.... Hole shot still sucks to pull a skier. I had Ron Hill make him a custom 4 blade cupped 15 pitch (under $300 to my door)and we are raising the motor up a hole to use the added bite of the 4 blade prop. I will report back after this weekend with results.<br />While I love the quiet fuel sipping qualities of the 115 4-stroke it just is not a powerhouse off the line. Without more power you are not going to get a rope snapping hole shot without under proping the boat. <br />My buddy still gets over 40mph and better fuel consumption with the 16 pitch 3 blade by the way.<br />We take his boat on trips around 70 miles round trip. It uses about 2 gallons less over the trip since we got the RPM up.<br />I say listen to walleye and raise your motor one hole and see what happens... .you can always move it back.

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Walleyehed: I Invested $75 in your advice, and am having the engine raised 1 hole. On with the current setup the cavitation plate is Level with the bottom of the boat. So with the engine up 1 hole it should bring it about 3/4" from the bottom of the boat.<br /><br />I figured it's either a $75 blessing, or a $150 mistake! The Dealer said the only thing he was worried about was the possibility that in a hard turn even with the motor trimmed down, it would cavitate.<br /><br />I am hoping with the 17P prop, and the engine up one hole, it will put me near the 6000RPM, and maybe pick up a couple of miles an hour.<br /><br />Where does your cavitation plate sit on your deep vee?<br /><br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />-TheChad

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

** Update **<br /><br />I take my previous statement about the Vengance prop having more bite than the black max prop back.<br /><br />I found out today that the Aluminum prop my boat/motor came with, that I was *Told* was a Black Max, was actually a Quicksilver prop.<br /><br />The localer dealer I am working with to get the correct pitch prop, and having the engine raised on the transom loaned me a Black Max prop in a 17P to try, and it did have the same bite as the Vengance Prop. So I guess the Black Max and Vengance prop's are virtually the same prop, in different materials. But I am happy with the performance.<br /><br />I don't have much else to compare it to though, since the only other prop I have tried was the QuickSilver, which is absolutly garbage compared to either the BlackMax or the Vengance.<br /><br />The QuickSilver Prop's blow out way too easy.<br /><br />------------<br /><br />As for the results of Raising the engine one hole on the transom:<br /><br />I picked up the boat today and gave it a test run for about 1/2 hour.<br /><br />I didn't pick up much for RPM or top speed, but I definitly noticed a difference in holeshot. <br /><br />It always felt like we were dragging an anchor before, now the back end feels alot lighter.<br /><br />The holeshot with 2 people was quicker, which I think is because the rpm's seem to rev up faster from Idle to full throttle.<br /><br />I didn't have much time today, but tomarrow (Thursday), I will be going back to the water with 4 people and will give it a run for the money.<br /><br />But so far, even with out much increase in RPM or MPH the results are still positive. Thought I was hoping to Pick up a few hundred RPM's and with that maybe a little in the MPH field, but I still can't complain.<br /><br />-TheChad

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

1 hole may not "fix" everything...on most outboards, you'll see 75-100RPM gain per hole up, plus other advantages such as better hole-shot, as you've seen already.<br />

Where does your cavitation plate sit on your deep vee?

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If you're asking about my boat, Chad, I'm about 4" above the boat bottom with the current Turbo I'm running, but I have a jackplate...yes...on my deep-V...about 7" back.

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Kenny, is that Turbo a "Cleaver" and how many blades?<br /><br />Mark

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

No, it's not a clever, and 3-blade...

Re: Vengeance performs exactly as Black Max??

Is it the prop in your "logo" pictured with your posts?<br /><br />Mark