Heat Pump,.??

Living up here in the Extreme Northern Climes,..... <br />I've never really looked into Heat pumps,.....<br />The way I understand that they work is by pulling Heat,.. or Cold from the Difference in the Required Temp.,+ the Ambient Temp of the heatexchanger,... usually from the Air Outside,........<br />Can somebody tell me if this is even remotely True,.....???<br /><br />If this Is So,.......<br />I'm thinking,.. Can there be a Water Cooled/Heated heatexchanger,.????<br />My new house sits Over the water on the river,.. A concrete pier is my foundation under about 1/2 of the house,..........<br />Anyway,.......<br />I'm thinking I could pump Water from the bottom of the river,.... It's 15' deep, less than 20' from My concrete,... the water is Probably up to maybe 60* in the Summer,+ Down to the Mid/high 40*s in the winter(yes, it freezes Solid, but that's the Surface).........<br />I'm thinking of laying a 4" conduit Thru the concrete to give Me an Underground/Underwater access to the water,.. It'll be Under a minimun of 4' of Water, All Year.......<br /><br />Am I Crazy(OK,... Don't answer That 1 ),... Or can this be Done,.????<br /><br />All Ideas,+ Thoughts Welcome,............ Thanks..........

Re: Heat Pump,.??

It's done all the time...you're not crazy, and I know this stuff well as I own such a system. Your first description is of an air to air heat pump. It's basically a central air conditioner that's capable of running it's compresser in reverse creating heat. Very popular here in Indiana and south of here, not so much further north because they're extremely inefficient at colder temps (below 40 degrees).<br /><br />Your second description would be of an open loop geothermal heat pump that draws water from a source and uses the heat pump compresser in the unit to heat the home in the winter, and cool the home in the summer. Also most offer hot water heating options. They're extremely energy efficient.<br /><br />More popular, slightly more expensive to install, and more reliable/less maintenance is a closed loop geothermal heat pump. This is what my home has. The system basically uses the earth as a radiator and antifreeze is pumped through 600 feet of pipe that's buried 6 to 15 feet or more below the earth. Being so far north you may have to put in more pipe, and run it deeper, but it will work just fine in the north as it does here.<br /><br />This link shows a few basics...I own this brand of closed loop geothermal heat pump. http://www.waterfurnace.com/content.aspx?section=residential&page=loop <br /><br />It's the most efficient way to heat a home. My 3,500 square foot home in Indiana is all electric. My electric bill averages just a bit over $100 per month, that's about 1/3 of what most $100 includes heating, air conditioning, hot water, washer/electric dryer, electric cooking utensils, you name it. No gas bill, no propane bill. The system cost about $10,000 to install, but paid for itself in energy savings over about 3 years. AND, I get a property tax credit every year of about $350 on top of it. And my property value is higher as a result of all this.<br /><br />I think these things are going to take off BIG time now that gas prices are shooting through the roof. Find a geothermal contractor in your area and buy one. You can't lose.

Re: Heat Pump,.??

You're on the right track Bondo, but the river water temps are too extreme in the winter. The other options and none are cheap out the gate would be a 'ground loop heat pump or a well water loop heat pump.<br /><br />Units that use outside ambient temps are not worth using below 30 deg outside temp, even at that, if your house is not well insulated they won't do well. On the other end, about 90 degrees at 55-60% humidity is the practical upper limit.<br /><br />What you need is a ground loop system where the 'grid' is buried far enough in the ground where the year round temp is a constant 55 deg. Then you'd have a system that would be most economical to operate year round, both cooling and heating.

Re: Heat Pump,.??

Sounds like something that I would try. About the same as they do for geothermal using a well. Maybe instead of using a water pump, make a coil to emerse in the water for the refrigerant. Going down 4', the compressor shouldn't have any problem. Then you wouldn't have to depend on and extra item that could fail. If your going to experiment, I would pick up an old unit to use. Thats what I did for the A/C on my boat. It made a difference and work great.<br /><br />Let me know Bondo on how it works. Knowing you, if it is in your mind, you will do it. Good Luck. I'm not real keen on heat pumps, but I got lots of books to get refrences from.

Re: Heat Pump,.??

Well,....... This is a New Idea,....<br />Been Mixing,+ Pouring concrete at the New House today,... Got to thinking about some 4" Heavy plastic conduit I've got kicking around,.....<br />I'm going to want year-round access to pumpable river water for a rather Large fishtank I'm hopeing to build into the place,.....<br />Now,... Thinking about this Heatpump/ Geothermal thing,.......<br />I'd better start looking for some 6 or 8" pipe........ 2 lines for the Fishtank,.. 2 lines for a Geothermal Loop,... Going to Need a Bait Tank for Icefishing,.?....<br /><br />Can't do the Buried Line thing,... Not enough Dirt,.... Limestone is very Near the surface,......<br />And,... It's a Small village lot,... On a Hill.......<br /><br />The Closed Loop thing could possibly be done(after Dark) on the river Bottom,...... maybe a couple Hundred feetof pipe in 12 to 15' water........ Probably need to use Metal pipe so it would Sink.....As long as it Stayed on the bottom,.. it Might Work.........<br /><br />Open Loop would be the Easist way........ <br /><br />I guess I'd better get Googling,......<br /><br />Thanks,+ Keep the Info coming...............

Re: Heat Pump,.??

Bondo the lower limit is 20 degrees before you run into not enough heat content. River water is a great Idea. Open loop pump the water from river to heat exchanger suck the heat out and put it back in river. I would measure the water temps to be sure you are not pulling so much heat out you freeze the water in the pipes.

Re: Heat Pump,.??

Originally posted by Bondo:<br /> Can't do the Buried Line thing,... Not enough Dirt,.... Limestone is very Near the surface,......<br />And,... It's a Small village lot,... On a Hill.......<br /><br />

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Actually it doesn't matter how much land you have, it's just a different method of digging. You just hire a well driller and install a vertical loop instead of a horizontal loop. You only need a few square feet of land. They can cut through the rock without a problem.<br /><br />Also, 4", 6", 8" pipe won't work well for closed loop, but you may have been referring to an open loop. For closed, you'd want long skinny pipe for maximum heat transfer. The amount of pipe depends on the size of the system. For instance my 3 ton system has 600 feet of 3/4 inch plastic pipe that was installed in the ground with a directional boring machine so they could get it REAL deep...deeper than any trencher could go. The boring machine also tears through any rock without a big problem. The closed loops that are dropped in lakes are thin piped as well, they look like massive, long slinkys made of skinny plastic pipe. Usually this is done with private lakes on private land. I'm sure the EPA and local goverment will have some rules to prevent you from dropping lines into the river. But drawing water for an open loop may be allowed. And being in a northern climate, you'll probably need a larger tonnage system than I do in order to get greater heating capacity for the colder winters. That means more than my 600 feet of buried line. And if you're open-looping out of a river in the middle of winter, the colder water temp will require a higher tonnage system as well. I'd bet you'll need a HUGE system if you go open loop in colder climates...it may be cost prohibitive. I'd think a very deep closed loop would work better. But I'm not an installer or engineer so I could be wrong, I just happen to have a lot of "Google" knowledge that I obtained before I purchased my system.<br /><br />I never would have considered this a DIY project myself...but have fun with it and let us know if you pull it off!<br /><br />I don't know what the heck made me think you were in Canada when I wrote earlier! I must have glanced at the "Lake Ontario" thing in your profile and made the wrong assumption. I've edited my previous post. Wecome back to the USA!