Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Admin5

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We found that this was such an interesting and thought provoking article that we would really like for you to read/discuss/comment. Are people being mislead by certain engine stigmas and hype? Enjoy ;) <br /><br />Two-stroke conventional wisdom<br />BY RALPH LAMBRECHT <br /><br />Everyone in the marine industry and most of its environmental critics are aware that there are now at least four manufacturers of two-cycle outboards with DFI, direct fuel injection: systems that put the fuel directly into the combustion chamber after the intake and exhaust ports close. Such systems eliminate loss of some of the incoming fuel charge out the exhaust ports along with the scavenged products of combustion that occurs with carbureted or EFI manifold injection systems. Nevertheless, conventional wisdom tells most of the critics of the two-cycle engine that it will never be as clean as a four-cycle engine. For this reason they would eventually advocate banning the two-cycle engine from the waterways on environmental protection grounds. <br /><br />There are even more manufacturers producing four-cycle outboards, including the same manufacturers that make the DFI two-cycle engines. They must seemingly follow down both roads for self preservation, as part of the outboard market is definitely leaning in the four-cycle direction, driven that way by hype, environmental concerns, and certain perceived advantages. We have already considered the ramifications of the increased engine weight for the four-cycles, the potential effect on boat trim, and the possible inability to float the boat level when swamped, as required by federal regulations for outboard boats less than 20-feet long. Then there is also the increased cost and complexity involved with four-cycle power, to be offset by savings realized in fuel consumed and elimination of smoke and oil slicks. <br /><br />This may be the price of progress, they say. But, is it possible to "have your cake and eat it, too?" Some recent tests run comparing 2002 model two-cycle DFI outboards with four-cycle outboards of equal power rating, mounted on the same boat, would seem to indicate such things are really possible. Comparison tests of two brands of four-cycle 225-hp outboards were made with a current state-of the-art DFI two-cycle 225. On identical 20'7" boats one four-cycle brand produced a best mileage of 4.7 mpg at 27.7 mph while the two-cycle gave a best 4.5 mpg at 28.6 mph. Very close. But, the two-cycle had a top speed of 59.8 mph against 52.4 mph for the four-cycle. At the same 52-mph speed the two-cycle gave better mileage to the tune of 3.2 mpg to 2.7 mpg for the four-cycle. The two-cycle produced better fuel mileage at every speed from 34 mph up and was also better at trolling speeds of 4-7 mph. <br /><br />When tested against the other 225-hp, four-cycle brand on identical 24' boats, the DFI two-cycle again prevailed overall, delivering a matching best 3.15 mpg at 32 mph. This outran the four-cycle 49.3 to 45.7 mph, getting better mileage (2.58 mpg) at its top speed than the four-cycle (2.44 mpg) at its top speed. It also produced far better mileage in the trolling speed range from 3.5-8 mph. <br /><br />A third set of tests compared a 135-hp, two-cycle DFI outboard against a 130-hp, four-cycle outboard on identical 20' boats. The two-cycle delivered 4.25 mpg at 20.8 mph against a best 3.97 mpg at 20.4 mph for the four-cycle. Best economy for the two-cycle was achieved at 27.9 mph: 4.45 mpg. It also bested the four-cycle in the 3-8 mph trolling speed range and beat it in top speed 43 mph/3.54 mpg to 37 mph/2.97 mpg. <br /><br />"Bah, humbug!" you might say. But there are sound engineering internal combustion engine principles for this surprising result. It is true that the typical four-cycle engine may have an inherent advantage in fuel consumed per horsepower. But not when the engine must be designed to produce very high horsepower per cubic inch of displacement at high engine speeds, as it must to achieve even the already heavier weight seen when compared to its two-cycle competitor. <br /><br />In order to achieve this high-power output, while firing only every other revolution of the crankshaft, the camshaft valve timing must develop considerable overlap between intake and exhaust valve openings and closings, which means it begins to suffer some of the same raw fuel loss out the exhaust problems as the carbureted or manifold injected two-cycle engine. It only has manifold injection, so the fuel and air must mix in the manifold and enter together past the intake valve into the combustion chamber while the exhaust valve is still partly open. The result is Some loss in fuel economy. <br /><br />Since the four-cycle engine has the same radical valve timing at low engine speeds, it suffers even more when compared to the two-cycle DFI engine at trolling speeds. The only way to fix this problem in the four-cycle engine is to go to direct fuel injection into the combustion chamber after the valves close, like the DFI two-cycle, or have a system providing variable valve timing with engine speed, conservative timing at lower speed and radical timing at higher speed. Such systems are now being developed for future automobile engines. Such things would add complexity, cost and weight, to an already more expensive and heavier product. <br /><br />Then there is the factor of acceleration from idle to planing speed. On the 241 boat the 225-hp, two-cycle DFI went from zero to 150 feet in 7.06 seconds while the four-cycle took 7.76 seconds. On the 20' boat the 135-hp, two-cycle DFI went zero to 150 feet in 6.2 seconds while the four-cycle took 8.7 seconds for the same distance. Acceleration from zero to 30 mph on the 20'7" boat for the 225-hp two-cycle DFI took 5.77 seconds compared to 10.7 seconds for the 225-hp four cycle. This demonstrates the better low-end torque and fast-rising power curve of the two-cycle, firing every revolution of the crankshaft. The four-cycles are quieter at low engine speeds, but this advantage goes away at the higher engine speeds. <br /><br />So, the conclusions are that the state of the art two-cycle DFI outboard can match or beat the four-cycle in fuel economy, top speed, and acceleration. What about exhaust emissions, which brought on the whole move to four-cycle outboards in the first place? These two-cycle engines can match or beat the four-cycles there, as well. It matches pretty much with the fuel economy story. The more fuel the engine consumes at a given boat speed, the more exhaust emissions that come out the other end. With precise microprocessor control and direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber after the ports close, the two-cycle DFI can better the most stringent exhaust emission requirements now proposed out to 2007. The four-cycle can do no better. <br /><br />After more than five years of testing and field experience the 2002 two-cycle DFI outboards have been developed to have quality durability, economy and environmental friendliness to match or beat the four-cycles, and at lower weight and cost. Both can exist and be successful in the marine market but no one should sell the two-cycle engine short on its ability to survive and prosper long into the future. It just has too many good things going for it. You might even see it on some future stern drives. <br /><br />Ralph Lambrecht is an engineer with more than 50 years of experience in the marine industry and marine safety standards development.<br /><br />Lambrecht, Ralph. 2002. “Two-stroke conventional wisdom.” Boat & Motor Dealer. April. 34-37
 

SeaDawg

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

OK, I'll bite first, and get the war started.<br /><br />I still like my 4-stroke. <br /><br />All any of the modern 2-strokes have to do is sneeze a couple of times, and you have ruined the powerhead. <br /><br />The 2 strokes absolutely HAVE TO HAVE OIL (even though it is getting smaller and smaller amounts), and that is an added cost to the fuel that I did not see mentioned in the article. <br /><br />I've never heard of a recall on a 4-stroke for a major type problem, and never hear of any major complaints from owners of them.<br /><br />Sounds like this article is slanted to help out 2-stroke sales to me.
 

martyscher

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Mar 18, 2002
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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

This article reminds me of the debate between digital and film cameras. The die-hards claim digital is not as good, not taking into consideration film cameras have been around about 150 years longer, but digital cameras for the most part, are light years ahead in design and function.<br /><br />2 strokes vs 4 strokes are similar lot, as 4 stroke have been on the scene a lot less than the 2's, which have proven designs and are cheaper to mfg.<br /><br />The 4 strokes of the future will only get stronger, lighter and more fuel efficient.<br /><br />Burning oil and pumping the by-product into the water is really not that great of an idea anymore.
 

12Footer

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

There are the same engineering hurdles present that there have allways been,regarding 4cycle marine engine developement,and there allways will be. This is why 2cycle engines are still so popular in the light motorcycle and marine powering industry.<br />But just as the hurdles allready jumped by engineers on the new 4stroke offerings,have given us a few heavy, gas-hungry, complicated beasties to power our hulls with, they have many more to make...Just to make them competetive.<br />They (4strokes) are getting better at the job they were intended for. The design and engineering book has just begun to be written, and I can think of some kewl things I'd like to try,given the opertunity. For instance;<br />Why do 4cycle engines have to have the oil sump attached to the engine? The sump and oil pump could be mounted well-forward, even in the bow someplace, thus, offsetting a great deal of the bulk and wieght.<br /><br />And what's up with the single-minded approach towards gear sets? Haven't these guys ever heard of 2 or 3-speed transmissions? Hey, I even have thoughts about automatic tranny tech in the lower unit of my Force 2stroke. The horespower is lacking,but that's only on the bottom end of the power band..<br />I'm sure the guys desgining these beasties are having a blast.And no doubt, know much better why these and other hair-brained ideas won't fly.Heck, they may have allready tried them.But there are many more hair-brained ideas where THOSE came from :D <br />But I envission a day not too long away, where the 225HP Merc 4stroke will weight 90pounds less than thier 2stroke.<br />The market is being forced into 4strokes..Not that anyone really wants one of these cumbersome sloths on thier transom..But with current regulations, those to come,and the volatility of the marine market in general, change IS inevitable.
 

Franki

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I'm on both sides of the fence on this one..<br /><br />I understand why 2 strokes are as good as they are... I raced motocross for years and 4 strokes just can't cut the mustard there.. (especially since some of those things rev at 12,000rpm)<br /><br />but I like four strokes as well.<br /><br />with regards to the oil issue, 2 strokes have no crankcase of oil to change (which to a degree lessens the 2stroke oil issue), and also, since they don't have said oil, they don't end up with trillions of tiny metal shavings floating around in the oil going through the bearings and such..<br /><br />And I have read on this very list several people winging about snapped cams and other things..<br />so the 4's have their own problems as well.. its a tough thing for 4 strokes, in order to cut weight, they use thinner materials, which under high sustained loads, can fail.. I find myself wondering if any of the current crop of 4 strokes will still be running in 40 years time. (before anyone tells me, I know that there are old 4 stroke outboards, I am taking about modern ones, like the Suzuki DF's..)<br /><br />I think 4 strokes will get direct injection as well, or Vtec style designes to address some of the issues.. but both engine types are advancing quickly.. so who knows?<br /><br />Also, if they figure out a way to lube 2 strokes that doesn't involve burning the oil.. then the two stokes will have their cake and eat it too...<br />(its not that unfeasable either, just technically difficult.)<br /><br />I'll just watch and see how things go.. I'd be happy to own either myself.<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank
 

Franki

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Actually, I was thinking about this, and I had an idea...<br /><br />My father is a Marine Engineer, he works as Chief engineer and has done for well over 30 years now..<br /><br />Alot of the ships he works on, are powered by massive electric motors, and they have the huge generators required to power them posititioned whereever the ship can best accomodate them, (in many cases up the front.)<br /><br />I am surprised that a similiar approach has not been tried with smaller marine engines..<br /><br />The initial versions may not have any weight savings over 4 strokes, in fact they may be heavier.. but they have some interesting benefits..<br /><br />1. the generator could be anywhere you want to put it, and lower then a powerhead.<br />2. Electric motors can spin at ludercrous speeds.<br />eliminating the need for stepdown/stepup gearcases.<br />3. Generator can be kept in perfect "powerband" whenever its under load.<br />4. Slow speed is brillant, trolling becomes a total non issue.<br />5. Flat power curve from 0 to 25000rpm.. need I say more.<br />6. 2 stroke/four stroke generator, makes no real difference.. since it is kept in its optimium powerrange anyway.. (4 stroke would probably be better in that respect.)<br /><br />The only issues to this are the size of the generator required.. and if they spent half the time they do on DFI and 4 strokes, they could probably half that.<br /><br />Its a facinating idea,, and one which I think they will inevitably find themselves if they haven't already...<br />There are a heaps of issues that would have to be overcome, but I think the idea does have merit..<br /><br />If it works on a ship 700 feet long, I am sure it could be adapted in some form to their smaller cousins.<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />frank
 

almost retired again

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I'll have to agree with Franki,I like them both,but didn't the artical also state that the 2 strokes also beat the 4's in exaust emissions test? If so I think that I would stay with the 2 strokes because of the simplisity and the proven design in the marine environment.<br />Thats my story and I'm sticking to it;FOR NOW LOL
 
D

DJ

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Frank-ESL10072, is not as far off as some of you may think. That is EXACTLY the way that the automobile business is going. A four stroke engine burning gasoline will NEVER be a "zero emission" vehicle. That is what the US government wants and that is what they are going to get. New generation power plants will consist of generating current to drive electric regenerative motors at the wheel ends. Not unlike a locomotive, just more sophisticated.<br /><br />The internal combustion reciprocating engine is a dinosaur in the transportation world. I has been cleaned up as much as it can.<br /><br />2 stroke vs. 4 stroke for now. I'll go with the 2. Fewer moving parts, lighter and the numbers show their as good or better. Most of the current batch of 4's are warmed over automobile engines, which were never originally designed for the 100% duty cycle a marine engine must operate under.
 

12Footer

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Hey Frank!!!! You and I should grab our old helmets, plastic knees, and gripper gloves and sling some goo. I too, am an X- MXer here in Florida! I never got more than an ankle sprain while rippin, but broke my leg in a jillion places just cruisin..(some bluehair pulled-out in fronta me). But it's great to see another dirt rider on the board!! Not to break away from the thread, just wanted to high-five ya.<br />And to agree with your predictions..Better then the one I gave, in the sceme of "the big picture".<br />Just immagine, a hydrogen outboard..Surounded by fuel that doubles as engine coolant! I can't wait, but will probably never live long enough to see my grandson's new offshore rig LOL. But definitely something to ponder.
 

Franki

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Hi Mr 12Footer, <br /><br />I have recently discovered just how many of us X-MXers there actually are on the net..<br /><br />I only ever broke my foot racing, but got tons of gravel rash, and once had the tyre tracks of 3 bikes over my back :)<br /><br />I remember debating years ago about nuclear energy.. and it was stated that a piece of uranium the size of a tub of margarine was enough to power a car for years..<br /><br />So if we are theorising, if they ever come up with cold fusion, then imagine a boat with no fuel costs at all?<br /><br />As I understand it, hydrogen is a tad dangerous, (there are ships that use hydrogen engines as well) but the idea is certainly there..<br /><br />As long as they don't end up telling us that we all have to install masts and go sailing, I'll be happy. :)<br /><br />I actually like my old 2 stroke, its noisy, its smelley, and rather ugly as outboards go, but I like it none the less..<br /><br />Still, if it ran on water, I'd like it alot more. :)<br /><br />If you ever come to Australia, we'll go down the track... and see if either of us still has it..<br /><br />I took a 92 CR250 for a fang the other day, and I must admit, that thing scared me.. they have gotten so much faster then when I was racing.<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank
 

Franki

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Sorry, that was meant to be a CR250 2002 model, not 92.. :)<br /><br />rgds<br /><br />Frank
 

singerjr

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

You start with an opinion or an agenda than you go out and find the evidence that backs that opinion up. It’s done all the time, every night on the evening news. Lifestyle magazines do it all the time to back whatever opinion the writer of the article has.<br /><br />For as many articles that back this opinion there are as many that back the opposite opinion. The statistics in this article are not scientific, they are anecdotal! There have been real studies on the issue that prove the opposite. You need hundreds of units for a comparison to come up with a conclusion, not one of each. For now it can be said and backed up that generally four stroke motors are cleaner burning, more fuel efficient and are quieter than two strokes.<br /><br />My wish is that both motors get better, I’ve read a lot about the “clean two’s”, they are very impressive and they have just begun to fight. I see one day these motors being quieter and having a better (bullet-proof) oil delivery system. And the four’s will get lighter and lighter.<br /><br />I think we all win in the end including the environment!
 

JB

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I am a fisherman, not a racer or a skier. I want an engne that starts instantly. . .no KOFF KOFF SPIT. . .no smoke.. .no noise. I want it to idle at 600-700rpm for hours without loading up. I want this in an under-100hp engine. I want to have normal conversation at cruise rpm. Finally, I don't want to mess with oil except for routine maintenance.<br /><br />I've owned many old-tech outboards and I have ridden in front of many new-tech 2 strokes. I have had my DF70 for about a year. It meets all of my wants.<br /><br />My experience contradicts some of Mr. Lambrecht's statements and leaves me a solid 4 stroke fan.<br /><br /> :)
 

Joe S.

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

From an engineering stand point here is the downfall of 4-stroke motors for marine use. #1 friction! Four strokes have oil pumps, timing belts, cams, valves and valve springs, and oil sumps all of which create frictional drag and lots of additional weight. Also the more parts there are the more there is to fail. 4-strokes also have very flat power bands and tend to lose much of their effective power up top. 2-strokes on the other hand are extremely simple and reliable. There is minimal lose of power due to frictional drag. There was also a suggestion above for variable speed lower units in outboards. The reason they don't exist is again because of weight and drag off setting the performance gains. The marine envirnment demands large horsepower to weight ratios. The fact of the mater is that a 2-stroke can always be lighter than a 4-stroke and put out more hp comparitively.
 

petryshyn

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I think 2-strokes will be around for a long time yet. The newer technology is finally being applied in the form of DFI and O2 feedback. Couple that with monitoring combustion chamber temp, and you still have the best HP for weight ratios with fuel injection performance. The 4-strokes are utilizing low density aluminum to reduce weight and get close to the 2stroke performance. Then the 2-strokes will use the same material and jump ahead again. We're just seeing the beginning of a computerized 2-stroke era.....<br /><br />my .01 cents
 

12Footer

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

4strokes were nothing but concepts on watercraft before the Y2K restrictions on emission (SP,sorry) came into effect.The marine industry had been warned, and attempted to gear-up for the occasion. Merc dropped thier old-tech Force line,after viewing redesign/retooling costs.<br />4strokes have come a long way.They had to. It was a matter of fiscal survival that predicated this shift from performance and reliabilty engineering,to emmission (SP again) limiting above all else. You can't make money,if you are not allowed to sell your product. I'm all for cleaning up our waterways as much as anyone.<br />But we need to keep in perspective the vintage of these two designs. I took from Mr Lambrecht's article;<br /> Real-world findings, as opposed to predicted performance. When the concepts were being tossed-out in the name of clean air/water, the moon was envissioned. Some of the proported benifits were obviously skewed to advance the issue in favor of shackling the marine industry.<br />Call them "big marine",and you get my opinion of what happened on "the floor".How dare they make money!?!<br /><br />Any buisness that fails to market reliable, cost-effective, efficiant product, fails utterly! This is fact.As is the reported performances. Are they accurate? Maybee, mabee not. I'm reminded of the alcohol-enriched fuels which were to burn cleaner,and at the same time, conserve fossil fuel supplies somewhat..At the price of corn, we had better get bigger wallets..Not to mention what this stuff does to rubber fuel system components. That's real-world. And yet, the powers that be still talk of adding MORE of it to your fuel.<br />And what about "the wonders of styrofoam" envisioned by it's inventors? The real world stats give a much uglier picture of this product.<br /><br />I say, why limit this to the 2 and 4 cycle internal combustion debate?<br />Let the alternative propulsion wheels turn.
 

trevorcday

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Dec 2, 2001
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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Let's make one thing clear here. Although a conventional two stroke is mechanically simple a DFI two stroke is not. For example the Mercury Optimax runs a belt driven air compressor which has its own crank case lubricant and water cooling, water cooled fuel rails, two different injectors per cylinder, a computer controlled electric oil injection pump on top of all of the sensors and electronics normally associated with a fuel injected engine. So much for simplicity. Fortunately all this stuff turns out to be lighter than a 4-stroke valve train so the DFI 2-strokes still enjoy a better power to weight ratio.<br /><br />I don't think there has ever been an arguement that the two strokes ultimately will have better performance and it is quite remarkable that the DFI technology has enabled them to approach 4-stroke efficiency and emissions. But it is achieved at the expense of mechanical simplicity. The four strokes that are on the market are using relatively conventional technology. The DFI 2-strokes are breaking new ground.<br /><br />It seems to me that some applications favor DFI 2-strokes while others favor 4-strokes. For example a 20' Bass boat will perform its intended function much better with a 225 Opti than a similar HP 4-stroke. On the other hand a 17' aluminum fishing boat would be more enjoyable with a 115 4-stroke (IMHO).<br /><br />Looking into my crystal ball. I think that boats will some day be legislated to be zero emissions as well. A practical technology which would achieve this would be a fuel cell providing current to an electric motor. Another technology that I would like to see is much higher reving 4-strokes. This is the only way that 4-strokes will ever approach the power density of 2-strokes. (for you motorcycle racers remember the Honda NR500).
 

62_Kiwi

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

I've seen many technology type arguments similar to this in the computer industry over the years(RISC vs CISC, Bus types, Windows vs Linux, Thin Client vs Fat, etc etc etc...). Usually a few years down the track you look back and the whole argument looks irrelevant. What seems vitally important one year, is not worth discussing the next year...<br /><br />My crystal ball says that both 2 strokes and 4 strokes are here to stay, until we move away from internal combustion engines altogether - and I don't know how far away that is. Maybe the Middle East problems will speed that up?<br /><br />They are essentially different products suited to different applications and/or customer preferences. The exciting 2 stroke vs the well mannered 4 stroke.<br /><br />It's interesting how the American companies dominate the 2 strokes and the Japanese dominate the 4 strokes. :rolleyes: <br /><br />Just another 2 cent deposit...
 

CAPTBLACKSMARINE

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Well now for my humble opinion . I believe that there will be both 2 and 4 strokes around for a long time to come . Though my preference is the 2 stroke . I have run both on various types of boats and can say from my experience the 2 stroke still wins out in all areas . Think about this the 4 stroke's out there are designs that have been being ran and perfected for power , performance and fuel consumption for years .Where as the 2 stroke dfi has only been around for a short while . They have come a long way in this short period and over the next few years i believe will advance even further . I am a dealer for 2 of the japaneese brands that are really pushing the 4 strokes , but as much as i hate to say it when you run one of these campared to a new FICHT outboard anyone can see and feel the superiorority of the dfi 2 strokes . Though only time will tell where all of this will lead . I see the 2 strokes still holding the majority of the market for many years to come .
 

ODDD1

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Re: Give your opinions on attached 2 vs. 4 stroke article

Been reading Ralph Lambrecht for a number of years now....aside from a penchant for Johnson/Evinrude product, I have always found him a reasonable and logical writer....have always enjoyed his columns....these numbers I would take on faith from Ralph...I have always said I will retire working on 2 strokes [now 40]. the 4 strokes are nice running units, but even with efi and electronic engine management [which the 2 strokes now have,too] they still suffer from the same inherent disadvantages that they did back when Homelite was building 4 stroke outboards back in the late 50's....too much weight for the power delivered...boost the power, and driveability suffers...drop the weight, and durability suffers..... the most telling spec is the top end speed..it takes horsepower,and a discrepancy of 7 mph between equally rated motors??? c'mon...
 
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